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Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 161
Location: Atlanta GA | I have been reading all the FRC threads out of curosity and boredom over the past few days. Went upstairs to play my "new" L778 I received about 3 weeks ago and was looking inside the bowl and saw a tag saying Factory Reconditioned Guitar. (It also has the regular Ovation sticker) Don't get me wrong, I love the guitar and am more than pleased. I have since inspected it with a fine tooth comb and I can't find a thing wrong. Sounds and plays good. It's just that I didn't know it was an FRG the seller (Music shop in Arkansas) said nothing about it when I contacted them to buy it. (it wasn't an ebay transaction) Got a great deal (slightly south of $1000) I am just surprised to find the tag after playing it for neearly a month. |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Here's the proof that frigs are no big deal. I did find it interesting that somebody was going on that Martin doesn't have these. Well, that may be so but the way to deal with it is to have a lower bottom level, what Ovation calls a frig is still a first for Martin. (I'm not saying they do this but it sure makes a good scenario. I'm sure we've all seen a Martin in a store that was less than 100%)
Every manufacturer has the same production problems and everybody has seconds and I dare say that the % of production is probably the about the same for all. All that is different is how they deal with it. |
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Joined:
August 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Tampa, FL | Having worked in manufacturing in one of my earlier lives, I have this mental image of a guitar going through the manufacturing process, getting to the next to last QC step where they put the strings on and then going to the final step where the person is tuning the instrument for final a performance test. Suddenly you hear an exclamation... "Hey! how'd this happen. The cutaway's on the wrong side..." |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Unless I have mis-understood, I see people getting confused between a "2nd" and an "FRG."
In my understanding, and I could be wrong, you WONT find anything wrong with an FRG, because it's a FACTORY RECONDITIONED as in IT WAS FIXED. I think Ovation has opened their own can of worms with this because they could probably just not say anything and no one would no.
If there is a blemish or something like that... then it may become a 2nd if it's not too bad, but it's unlikely it ever left the Factory with the blem, and for whatever reason, it's not cost effective to repair, so it becomes a 2nd.
Now having said this... I guess it's possible to have an FRG and find a flaw that went un-noticed, but I doubt the flaw you find would be what caused it to get the FRG tag because at the risk of being redundant... the FRG tag means it was fixed.
Some examples of FRG repairs that I have heard of... when it was explained to me.
- Pre-amp compartment locking mechanism cracked and store recieved with something rattling around on the inside.
- Bad solder joint on input jack.
Both of these "repairs" could be done in less than 5 minutes and there is NO ramification to the quality of the instrument. Is the instrument still new? Well, no it's been repaired. Does it have a flaw? Well no... it was repaired. Hence, FRG.
I had "heard" they marked a bunch of non-LX Elite guitars as FRG just as a way to sell them when the LX models came out. I doubt this is common practice, but no matter... again... nothing wrong with the guitar. |
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Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 161
Location: Atlanta GA | Either way makes no difference to me... I bought it to play and it plays well !!! I used to collect and repair pocket watches (hence the handle) and my experience has been that real estate is the best place to invest, after all "They ain't making no more of it" New or re-conditioned... |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Miles, when was the last time you heard of a second from Ovation????
The repairs you mentioned are problems that could happen in the line and get fixed. If it never leaves the factory and never gets sold to anyone it's just another production guitar that gets fixed and then shipped as a first. Happens all the time to everyone. If the repair isn't complete some close their eyes, some call it a second, some call it a frig.
FRG is a marketing SPOO, excuse me, spin on the same old problem of what to do with seconds. |
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Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ | I'm not at all sure this is meaningful, but I just recently bought a Factory Reconditioned Dewalt cordless drill. According to Dewalt (actually parent company Black & Decker) it works like this: When someone buys a NEW powertool it has some warranty. If it fails during the warranty B&D will repair or replace. If they replace it, the failed one that was turned in is reconditioned (if possible) and resold as FRPT (Factory Reconditioned Power Tool). And btw, the replacement tool they send you might also be a FRPT. But the bottom line is that a NEW tool in the factory may have been reworked and screwed over a dozen times to make it "right", but it leaves the factory as a NEW tool and is sold as such. No tool that has never left the factory and been sold (even to a distributer) can by definition be a FRPT.
Now, all that being said above seems to fly in the face of the '05 Collectors. It seems that the very first NEW 05C's as well as FRG 05C's were leaving the factory at the same time. Within 3 weeks of the guitars intro at NAMM, FRG's were hitting the streets. So I can't believe these were previously sold, returned, and reconditioned guitars. It just doesn't add up. SOOOO - I've got to believe what W2 said is dead on the mark and there ain't no such friggin' thing as a FRG Ovation. They are just plain old SECONDS. And why does it seem there are so many more Ovation seconds that other brands on the street? Well, I would guess quite simply that it's because Ovations threshold of "first quality" is higher than the other guys. So there you go. If you don't like the idea that Ovation sells seconds then don't buy one.
Now, one last rant - the marketing suits better get this shit together and make a POSITIVE spin on it right now before the competitors make a NEGATIVE. If I was Martin or Taylor, I would be telling the world how poor the quality control is at Ovation as proved by the huge numbers of FRG Ovations on the street. BEFORE the competition pisses on this fire, all Ovation needs to do is make it publically known that they have the HIGHEST QC standards in the world as proved by the fact that they will not allow common minor cosmetic issues to go out the door as first quality. If an Ovation customer is going to PAY for 1st quality he's damn well going to GET it.
The ironic thing in all this is that as Ovation fans we just love the damn guitars no matter what they call them. Those that bought first quality love them, those that bought seconds love them as well. Chi-Chi shop buyers, customers of Al, on-line buyers, ebay trawlers, etc. we all just love the guitars. I bought an '05 Collectors SECOND and could not possibly be happier with it. |
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Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 338
Location: Toronto | I'm following all the FRG conversations - and am wondering a couple of things...
1. FRG's are not serialized right (1 of x)?
2. If not - then, if one was collecting Ovations as investments - does that make FRG's a bad risk (as an investment - not as a player!)?
Dano |
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Joined:
April 2003
Posts: 2503
Location: Fayetteville, NC | In all honesty, Since the FRG label indicates a problem was fixed or repaird and made right at the factory, no i don't think of it as a bad investment. The purchaser will obtain the frg at a great price so therfor even if resold the frg label doesn't inhibit the ability to resale.
you just wouldn't sell it without indicating that it was in fact an frg. but keep in mind that any instrument, New or frg new depreciates when it is sold the 1st time. |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15682
Location: SoCal | I hate to be the one to say this, but historically, very very few Ovations have been shown to be good financial investments. So asking about how the FRG issue (also known as the "Frog" issue) is kind of a moot point.
Now having said that, they are great musical investiments, and bargins for what you do get. |
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Joined:
April 2003
Posts: 2503
Location: Fayetteville, NC | AMEN!! |
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Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 640
Location: boulder | short answer
I keep coming back to, what's a guitar for?
for me personally, it's to make sounds that people consider appealing to listen to--some even call these sounds music.
again to me, O's have a great sound and are built to last if even remotely taken care. Better a great guitar with a tag, then no sound making device at all.
long (winded) answer
I judge every/each guitar on their own merits, which usually boils down to : "how does it sound?"
whether you are or are not collecting, close your eyes and listen and feel. Do you like it? To me, Price and looks should not be the first consideration, although they are important. I mean if the guitar sucks, it sucks. If it is great, it's great. Open eyes, can you live with it visually, do you love it visually? Now can you afford it (or any of them )?
FWIW, ovation emailed me that a frg is considered a second. This seems commen sense, it went back through a second time. It doesn't mean the guitar leaves with anything wrong. (ironic that for their honesty in acknowledging it took a second time through, they even take a financial hit, well I think they might, not really sure)
FRG's hold their serial number in a limited serial number run. I think standingovation (dave) has a frg with a serial # < 100. also their was a 1777-USA (flag model)for sale on ebay that was a frg but still had a s/n in the limited run of 75 guitars.
as for collecting for investment, eventually enough knuckleheads will want to own the special ones. but it's a "in the long run thing ", i think.
I don't think any guitar maker is perfect, but I appreciate Ovations committment to quality of sound and construction. If only they would tell people what they have to go through to put out such a great instruments. commitment to quality seems like it should be the selling point. Commitment to quality of construction is why I buy them. Commitment to quality of sound is why I keep them.
peace mike |
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Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | I haven't been in on the other FRG thread so I don't know all that has been said so my dos centavos might be redundant.
Good guitars are things of beauty and of superior sound, but that beauty is not the perfection of a coffee table or hutch that has no artistic use. As a good guitar is played and lived with and enjoyed, it ages just like we do and gets scratches, dings, stains, aging signs etc., none of which affects the sound or artistic merit, which usually improve as the visual appearance matures. If you can save some money on an FRG, GREAT, use the money to get more stuff, the FRG will do as well as any other guitar of the same model and you can enjoy the other stuff as well.
Guitars are not a good investment, the ancient Martins, Fenders, etc. that are valued in big bucks were all bought originally by some musician who just wanted a good guitar and stretched his/hers budget to get one that sounded good, certainly not to insure money for their children's college. I know, I knew people who bought those and now have sold them, bought a cheaper guitar, and, as I said, bought more STUFF with the profit.
A GUITAR IS NOT FURNITURE TO BE JUDGED BY IT'S PERFECTION IN APPEARENCE. The design, materials, and ability to play to the standards of a good player are what counts.
Bailey (dos centavos = about .16 cents) |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | I have weighed in on the FRG matter elsewhere, so am not going to reprise it here other than to say that far more often than not, the cause for the designation is difficult -- if not impossible -- to find.
But having said that, I want to go back to the original post. I think it is egregious that a dealer sold an FRG guitar for the price of a new first quality one and further failed to disclose that it was an FRG. |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Ok CWK2, ya got me. It's not that I haven't seen a 2nd in the past couple of years, but the ones I know of, are actually from 2001. You are correct (duh) that since then, it's only been FRG. Also good point that the FRG's and non-FRG's are hitting the streets at the same time.
So, again in the words of Rosanne Rosannadanna... "netermind"
As to why there are seemingly a lot of Ovation FRG models... a good way to cash in on a guitar that for all intents and purposes has nothing really wrong with it, but just isn't perfect. At the same time, it offers a way for players to get a quality instrument at a lower price.
A friend of mine has an FRG Elite 12 string. We can't find anything remotely wrong with it. And as some folks can attest... I'm over the top when I look for stuff. I usually go over new guitars with a magnifing glass... (actually it's one of the headband things one wears when working on electronics or jewelry). If there is a flaw, I'll find it. I could not find one on his FRG Elite. |
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Well Kiss My Foot !!
