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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2004-2005 | Message format | |
xbj |
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Joined: June 2003 Posts: 194 Location: Las Vegas | Guys, I think primo positioning in musical instrument retailing is every bit as much bought and paid for as it is in everything from the grocery store to the drug store to Tower Records. Didn't use to be that way, but it is. Calling Guitar Center is a waste of time, it's Ovation that has to "claim" the primo space down lower from Guitar Center with whatever "means" they have at their disposal. You can rest assured that better positioning at Guitar Center and other retail outlets is definitely "available" for the right "discounts" and "deals". Les | ||
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| Northcountry |
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| Joined: February 2004 Posts: 2487 | Well Brian if you don't see your comment as rude or offensive then my friend it is you who are, how did you say it........"The Bottom of the barrel" That comment speaks volumes to me about your character! We have lots of people in here as members and many who visit here who do not have a paypal account! Nice for them to see what we Ovation elitests think of them! Well what you think anyway. I have spent somewhere around $20,000 on guitars and almost all of them were paid for by money orders? Funny never thought those guitar dealers thought poorly of me when I sent them 5 or 6k at a time. But your last comment seems to elude to the fact that you speak for all those who sell on ebay. You don't speak for me and I have passed $100,000 in sales over 6 years or so never once! not once did I have trouble with a money order. I am sure I have more experience selling than you do. My marketplace is across the board. And I have held checks for people too, nothing wrong with that it is a service and part of the cost of doing business and what people do to be HUMAN to one another. You want the fast easy payment! Not a nice world we will be living in when we all give up and want the fast easy way out. One guy who sent me a check was a local senator. He happened to not have a paypal account. Stereotyping is something a bigot does! Randy | ||
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| Old Applause Owner |
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Joined: July 2003 Posts: 1922 Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Tony, I've bought FOUR of my Os from my local Guitar Center: 2004 GCS-771-C Balladeer (cedar-top, Guitar Center only model) 2002 Collectors' (bought used) 2005 Collectors' 2005 1771LX Balladeer Roger | ||
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| BrianT |
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Joined: January 2004 Posts: 338 Location: SE Michigan | Northcountry, or I guess I should call you Randy, I can see I touched a sore area with you, I have sore areas as well. I also feel an obligation to give good advice to the less-experienced viewers of this forum. But that said, when you deal over the internet you don’t even have a face to look at. You cant judge someone by how they are dressed, or by the car they pulled up in, or by the companions who come in with them. On the Internet you only have a few numbers, and it's common knowledge that the Internet is loaded with scammers and non-paying low-life’s. I used to get really mad when I was younger when I could not rent a car without a credit card. Now that I am older I understand that I was asking the rental car company to trust me with their $20,000 investment and they don't know me from Adam. Getting a credit card used to be a right of passage. I think I was 25 before I finally got one (and they screwed me on the rate at that!). Now even the Poodles from the other thread can get a credit card provided they have a real address. I have worked many years to obtain a stellar credit rating. I pay my bills promptly and protect my reputation. And I reap the benefits of my diligence in better mortgage rates and better credit card deals. If some upstart teenager wants to bid on my $1000 + Ebay guitar auction, he damn well better have a Paypal account and hopefully a Visa card as well. If he doesn’t I hope he treated his dad nicely and can borrow his Dad’s Paypal and Visa card (I did sell a guitar to a 16 year old this way once). Dealing in the electronic marketplace requires electronic credentials, and Paypal is just such a credential. Any Bozo can walk into a post office and buy a money order, it tells me nothing about the person. You are free to do as you please but my auctions will continue to be "Paypal Only". I have had people ask me to take Money Orders, even after I clearly posted PAYPAL ONLY. My thinking is that if this person does not have the means or the initiative to set up a Paypal account, I probably don’t want to do business with them. This is my right, and there is nothing elitist about it. PS - never leave funds in a Paypal account when they are not needed....bad things can happen as you found out. Also you can instantly fund Paypal with your Visa card, which is how I buy things. | ||
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| Mark in Boise |
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Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12750 Location: Boise, Idaho | OK, you two. I'll mediate for a large fee. Our GC doesn't have a high end room, so maybe I'll just go in and take the good ones that are way up there and move them down to eye level or below. I actually haven't noticed any pattern at ours. The Celebrity Deluxe that I bought my daughter was proudly displayed at the front of the room. Unfortunately it wasn't close to being in tune. When I next came in it was among all the other brands. I've already agreed to retire and go to work for GC at minimum wage. I'll only be 3 times the average age of the rest of the employees. I bet that doesn't fit their marketing strategy. | ||
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| Northcountry |
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| Joined: February 2004 Posts: 2487 | Well you go ahead and look down your nose at the people who you have prejudged. I'll give them a chance to do the right thing. Considering, In my vast exprience so far, I have only had a couple of real nut jobs to deal with through ebay and both of them were sellers who did not send the item! I think most of those without a paypal account are people just like the rest of us. I do see your point about the electronics market and I'll give you your experience selling what you sell. I just will never understand why you would limit your payment options when you say it's because people who have to buy a money order are lesser people? I'll bet you have not had a bad money order you just think you will. I look at Paypal as a necessary evil. You look at it as a status symbol, yet any idiot can get one? Logic is weak. Anyway back to my earlier comments I may be wrong I often am. No need to mediate just took me a while to unberstand why this seller only accepts paypal. I see now it is not a business decision it is a character flaw. Your welcome to call me Randy or anything else you want by the way I alwasys type my name in my messages. Thanks for new perspective on auctions like these. Randy | ||
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| Standingovation |
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Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6192 Location: Phoenix AZ | The seller (or retailer) always has the right to limit their payment options. Remember, the freaking OLYMPICS don't even take American Express !!! As a buyer I ONLY look for auctions that take PayPal. I'm not going to hastle with going to the post office and all that crap. If you don't take PayPal, you don't get my bid. Simple as that. That's a personal choice that I make, and others can choose differently. Dave | ||
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| GN-Nick |
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Joined: July 2005 Posts: 176 | Rather than move the guitars to the high end room, just go in and ask to play the ones up high on the wall. If someone does that everyday I guarantee they will move the guitars down low. | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | I basically refuse to deal with PayPal because their Customer Service is atrocious. After spending an entire afternoon contesting charges on my PayPal account that I DID NOT MAKE with assorted inept fuckwits on their staff, I ended up cutting my losses and paying them (about $125), cancelling my credit card, and refusing to EVER give them my business again. Stupid people annoy the piss outta' me. When a company can find it acceptable to have a minimum-wage ignoramus (mis)handling their customers, I vehemently refuse to give them any further consideration. | ||
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| Northcountry |
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| Joined: February 2004 Posts: 2487 | Dave this is great ! Never said I had a problem with this. If you don't accept Postal Money Orders. (and by the way we all still go to the PO all the time) My problem is if you don't accept them because you think people who have to use them are dirty and bottom of the barrel. Paypal has, and is, going to take one more human aspect of life away from the humans who live it! Do you charge your customers the paypal fee's too? Must be nice. Priority mail, free boxes, laptop in bed, hey if you could get one of those peole who have no money (you know the ones who don't have a paypal account) I'll bet you could get those dirty people to pack you boxes for you for a little food! NO business expense at all! Your right I'll admit it! Paypal is the way! I see it now. No more going to the bank and all that hassle that is a real hardship, and for Brian no more dealing with those lesser people. You guy's have set me straight YOU WIN! Randy | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | oh boy I don't take pay pal. I almost signed up a couple of months ago but then a close friend had 3 bad experiences in a row. Personally I don't need the aggravation. I look at it from the other perspective randy. any subhuman with a 299 e machine cable to their trailer can get a pay pal account. Me as a legitimate business who paid to have credit card service set up is now frowned upon because I don't take pay pal. So do I lose some business??? probably. That is why I had a secure server page set up so I can accept payment that way. This insures that those who want no personal contact what so ever can achieve that by clicking on my link and providing their information. I struggle with the pay pal question all the time. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | oh boy I don't take pay pal. I almost signed up a couple of months ago but then a close friend had 3 bad experiences in a row. Personally I don't need the aggravation. I look at it from the other perspective randy. any subhuman with a 299 e machine cable to their trailer can get a pay pal account. Me as a legitimate business who paid to have credit card service set up is now frowned upon because I don't take pay pal. So do I lose some business??? probably. That is why I had a secure server page set up so I can accept payment that way. This insures that those who want no personal contact what so ever can achieve that by clicking on my link and providing their information. I struggle with the pay pal question all the time. | ||
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| Standingovation |
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Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6192 Location: Phoenix AZ | Randy, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Some people prefer human intervention (go to the PO buy a MO, lick the envelope, hand it to the nice lady behind the counter, etc. That's fine. I can say with absolute 100% certainty that I have not be inside a PO in a few years and don't miss it at all. I buy stamps at the grocery store check out. But all this is not the point. I've made almost 400 transactions on ebay and the overwelming majority have used PayPal. Check, my auctions and you will see that I state PayPal is PREFERRED. I will accept MO but I try to discourage it because it's a pain in the ass for me. And yes, I eat the PayPal fee. And on a $1500. guitar that's a pretty sizable fee (about $30.) but I just absorb that as the cost of doing business. I won't say I have never purchased using MO, but again it's a huge hastle for me and for the most part I don't even look at auctions that don't take PayPal unless it's really something special that I have no other option for. For me PayPal is like a "slush fund". Money comes in, money goes out. Buy one, sell one. As long as keep the buying and selling pretty much in balance it's all just internal transfer and almost doesn't seem like real money. I totally respect that you don't like PayPal or prefer not to use it. And I certainly do not think anything less of you or others with similar attitudes. And that's perfectly fine if you resent sellers that insist on PayPal. But that's there right to do so. Personally I resent restaurants that insist I wear a shirt and shoes. But that's just me. Peace, Dave PS - We all have our opinions. I respect yours and only ask in return that you respect mine. I use PayPal, I love Republicans, I don't believe in God, and the best sounding acoustic guitars I have ever heard are not made by Ovation. There you have it. | ||
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| Buckaroo |
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Joined: October 2005 Posts: 400 Location: North Texas | I like to buy from Paypal people because there is a record of the transaction, and a chance to recover funds from a shifty seller. With a money order, which is like sending cash, if the seller does not send the item, the buyer is SOL. I can't fly up to Jersey because someone beats me out of forty bucks. I can't say that I like Paypal, but I use it for nearly all my Ebay transactions. If a seller won't accept that kind of payment, the item has to be something I really want, at a price I really like. Cheers, Buckaroo | ||
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| BrianT |
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Joined: January 2004 Posts: 338 Location: SE Michigan | Sorry folks, this is too much fun to leave alone. Another factor in favor of Paypal is the "confirmed shipping address". With this feature I have some degree of proof that I am shipping to the legitimate owner of the account, and that the account has not been hi-jacked. On more expensive auctions I insist on a confirmed Paypal address. This process requires that you have a bank account, then Paypal actually makes a small deposit to prove that you are the account owner. It's actually pretty smart. So why not have a Paypal account? I guess if they pissed you off in some way (Cliff and Randy) that is your right. The other reasons are less appealing to me as a seller (and as buyer as well): (1) You don’t have a bank account. (2) You have been blacklisted due to prior misconduct. (3) You are a lying cheating smelly scammer (4) You don’t have an email address or a residential address (5) You are too lazy to bother setting up an account. (6) You are a passionate political protester vehemently opposed to Paypal's oppression of the masses. And all of these reasons (except that Paypal pissed you off) make you a person I don’t want to do business with over the Internet. Maybe someday you’ll get your life together and start moving up from the bottom of the barrel. Get a job, get a haircut, save your money, open a bank account, pay your bills on time, find a nice girl, soon your life will be better and then you can bid on my guitar. Look, Paypal is Ebay's tool to make sure (as much as is reasonably possible) that people don’t get screwed. If you want to play on Ebay you should have a Paypal account. Do you go to Canada and bitch at them if they don’t take U.S. Money? Ebay is just a little side thing I do. If I could accept charge cards directly I would, but so far the best thing going for me is Paypal. One final thing, buying over the internet with a money order (or check) is even more foolish. When you put your MO in an envelope and drop it in a mailbox, what assurance do you have that you will ever see the item or get your money back? To me this is incredibly stupid. | ||
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| Northcountry |
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| Joined: February 2004 Posts: 2487 | I know I got a little crazy in here and I appologize for contributing to messing up this thread. I was taken by surprize by the bottom of the econimic barrel quote! That is unfair and borders on bigotry. I am surprised that it was not simply corrected instead it was defended. Anyway Thanks so much for accepting my money through a bank check or money orders Al. I would not own a few very, very nice Ovations and Hammer guitars now if you did not. Paypal is just supposed to be a tool for people to increase their sales and to do business quickly (when needed). It is not supposed to be the banking system we all live by. Nor is it supposed to be a guide for judging the economic status of others! But Like I said at least three times now "I may be wrong I often am" Peace Love Dope Randy | ||
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| xbj |
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Joined: June 2003 Posts: 194 Location: Las Vegas | Originally posted by cliff: And not just ANY minimum-wage ignoramus, but most likely a very nice Indian in India named "Elvis" or "Heather" making WAY below US minimum wage. When a company can find it acceptable to have a minimum-wage ignoramus (mis)handling their customers, I vehemently refuse to give them any further consideration. (Really happened!) Les | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | the fact that pay pal and e bay is a monopoly disturbs me also. when I was contemplating getting pay pal a good friend e mailed me. they take/took pay pal. they sold 4 items to 4 independent buyers all with confirmed addresses etc. Each person claimed they did not get the item. each person got a refund, my friend was left with proof of delivery but with no $$$$. let me make this analogy. You go to a restaurant, eat a meal some 19 year old bim with her hooters half hanging out gives you the check and you hand her your credit card. I sell something on e bay and I am a legitimate business yet you tell me you don't want to give me your credit card number over the phone. I can't figure this one out. A part of the equation is that when e bay was in its infancy and I was selling on it, the fact that it was a small community of computer owners and internet users made it rather elitist and safer. Now with cheap computers and connections, it lends itself to scams and riff off artists. It really makes it difficult for legitimate vendors to do business. believe me I have been ripped off by buyers AND sellers!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | ". . get a haircut . ." . . now I'M offended!!! :D | ||
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| BrianT |
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Joined: January 2004 Posts: 338 Location: SE Michigan | Al, I nearly had one bad Ebay sale where the guy paid, I shipped, the FedEx tracking number said delivered, and the guy says he never received the package. Luckily later FedEx found the package. Now when I ship I require signature verification of delivery. And I have no problems giving a legitimate business (such as yours), my charge card info. I really don’t have a problem giving my charge card to the big-boobed babe at Hooters (as long as she has washed her hands). With a charge card I am not libel if someone pulls a scam. Worst case I fight with the charge card company a bit and close the account. As far as Ebay and Paypal being a monopoly; hey, it's their business! There are other on-line auction sites and other payment-proxy services. No one is forcing anyone to use Ebay or Paypal. Ooops, except for me, that’s right, if you bid on my Ebay auctions you must use Paypal. But hey, you could just buy your guitar from Al! | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15654 Location: SoCal | Unfortunately, I will almost always give a 19 year old bin w/ her hooters hanging out, my credit card.... | ||
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| xbj |
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Joined: June 2003 Posts: 194 Location: Las Vegas | My take? I laugh at Paypal-only sellers, then I take my hard-earned "bottom of the barrel" money elsewhere. I've spent well over $150,000 on musical gear and furniture off eBay in the past seven years, every bit of it paid for by USPS money orders. If a seller can't cash a USPS money order when they're at the post office fulfilling orders, or deposit it in a trip to the bank, or mail it there if they're too lazy to get off their ass, that's their problem. And a USPS money order is BETTER protection for the buyer than Paypal, that's for sure. I've had three "lost" (or stolen) money orders replaced over that time. The stories on the web of buyers being screwed by Paypal are legion. Limiting oneself to the instant gratification of electronic fund transfer is not only elitist, it's just plain bad business. Anyone who can afford to limit their audience, deserves (and gets) a vastly limited audience. And as credit card rates get higher, and more and more folks get overextended, and more and more options (bankruptcy) are erased by legislation bought and paid for by credit card companies, you paypal-only sellers can watch your customers further dwindle down to a tiny percentage of the market. But by all means, cater to the rich; that's the ticket to the top, baby! Les P.S. I've found that most paypal-only sellers will actually take a money order if you contact them via e-mail and have a stellar eBay record. I've bought about five items this way; only one seller actually completely refused. You have to realize that eBay provides all sort of "incentives" that almost border on coercion for sellers to promote and go "all Pay-pal." | ||
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| Northcountry |
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| Joined: February 2004 Posts: 2487 | Thanks you know I have and I will continue to buy from Al Thanks. Paypal and Ebay will monopolize everything if it continues! Then you see just how they dictate what fee's you will pay for their god like service! Paypal; I will continue use it reluctantly. No problem with you Dave at all if it is "prefered". In fact this makes perfect logical sense! You ask your customers to use it but accept other payments as well. Thanks...by the way.... I think "Paypal Only" rules are the dumbest thing I have ever heard, and anyone who judjes me on the vehicle I drive or the banking system I use is ignorant! And a bit of an Asshole actually. HEy just calling it like I see's it. And I sure don't want to do business with them through my paypal account or otherwise! I paid cash $9,600 for a brand new 4x4 ranger with all the toys last year and I drove in with my old work truck all rusted out with a beat up trailer, in tow, to the Polaris dealer. Wonder if that fool was hoping I did not come in the door when he saw me. If he did.... He was wrong! Was he not? How Bout people who are Black Brian? do you have your preconcieved notions about how much they have to spend before they walk in the door? How bout people in wheelchairs....they must not have a lot of money right? They have all those doctor bills right?? Do you see my point Your comments were mean spirited so I am just sending a little back. So I guess that's the end of my part in this. Sorry Brian really I did not know you before this exchange, and I still don't, but I have learned enough to dislike your character very greatly. Again not that anything I think matters to anyone, but it is, what it is! Peace Dope & Love Randy | ||
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| BrianT |
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Joined: January 2004 Posts: 338 Location: SE Michigan | OK, OK, Les and Randy, you've got me feeling bad now. I've never been called an elitist before. The truth is that if someone took the time to call me or email explaining some special circumstance I would probably accept a money order. But I would not ship for 15 to 30 days until I was absolutely certain that the money order cleared. For years I fought using charge cards, direct payroll deposit, and online banking and bill paying. Now I embrace them. I love being able to manage my affairs from my computer. I hate going to the bank So I confess, one of the main reasons I don’t want a money order is because I'll have to get dressed, risk life and limb driving my car to the bank, then wait in line with all the other non-elitist low-life’s to deposit the stinking thing! Then wait a couple weeks to be sure you don’t report it as lost when you try to scam me. There you have it! I am a lazy elitist oppressor of the economically disadvantaged!! | ||
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| Buckaroo |
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Joined: October 2005 Posts: 400 Location: North Texas | Most sellers will take any kind of payment if there is a good communication between the parties. The protection of money orders is only for the money order itself. Once it's cashed the protection is over. If the seller is a sleeze, and does not honor the transaction, what can the buyer do about it? Yes, a money order is the best kind of payment, for the seller. Not so great for a buyer. When I send out a money order, there is always prayer involved. The system is tilted towards the seller anyway. I think the item should be recieved before the money order is sent, but it does not work that way. If a buyer is expected to have faith in the seller, why not vice versa? | ||
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