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Location: Central Florida | I don't think there's any big Guitar Center conspiracy to keep high-end Ovations out of their stores. What it boils down to, I'm afraid, is that most players (present company excepted, of course) just don't want them, and GC isn't going to stock something they think is going to be sitting around for a long time. That's just business. I think, Ovation -- whether they meant to or not -- has carved out a niche for themslelves as the premier entry-level to mid-level acoustic/electric guitar maker and they seem to be quite comfortable there. And, I don't really see that changing anytime soon, either from Ovation's perspective, OR in terms of the public's perception of them.
Unfortunately, in the eyes of most serious musicians, Ovation guitars have long since gone the way of leisure suits, bell-bottom polyester pants and denim sportcoats. The advances they made in producing an electrified acoustic that still sounded like an acoustic when plugged in is what drew artists of every ilk to them back in the 70s and (early) 80s. It wasn't the round back. It wasn't the visual aesthetics. And, unfortunately, I don't think it was their acoustic tone. It was one thing and one thing only: the freedom of being able to play on stage without having to be tethered to a microphone and still have it sound convincingly "acoustic" that put these guitars in everybody's hands back in the day. Ovation had the lock on that. No other guitar maker could offer that. Obviously, that claim cannot be made today.
In retrospect, it's hard not to conclude that many players (major artists included) may have only "endured" the unconventional aspects of Ovation while hoping & waiting for the technology to be introduced into more traditional, all wood guitars. As soon as that became a reality, the days of seeing Ovations everywhere you looked were on the wain.
Will there be another "golded era" for Ovation? I certainly hope so, because they seem to be making some pretty awesome guitars these days. But, just like artists who continue to make great music long after their popularity has peaked, only a handfull of people, the die-hard fans, ever hear it because the masses have moved on to something else.
It's going to be a tough road ahead for Ovation if they really want to be competitive in the higher end market. They've pushed so much product into the entry/mid-level market for so long that it's now become the thing they're most known for. Add to that the "passe` factor" of the overwhelming majority of public opinion about them and it's easy to see they have a hell of a battle on their hands. Frankly, I don't know that it's a battle they can win. For that matter, I don't know that it's a battle they even care to fight. |
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Location: North Texas | Hey Jeff, I had the opposite reaction to the Ovations. It was the sound that attracted me, not the appearance. In fact, I thought they looked funny. When I played them, however, my opinion changed. The deep bowl is still my favorite. I never owned, or wore a leisure suit. Buckaroo |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Well said, Jeff! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I agree with you, Jeff, but are you trying to tell me that bell bottoms, leisure suits and denim sportcoats are out? The world has gone to hell.
Actually, I agree with Buck, too. The Ovation sound was distinctive before the electronics came. I didn't own a leisure suit either, but I didn't own any suits then, except for the denim one with the bell bottoms. |
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Location: Central Florida | Buck,
I love the tone too, as we all do here. I also love the look of 'em. I agree with you on the deep bowls... They rule! But, the above observations were born from numerous conversations I've had through the years with other players, and from reading other guitar related forums.
Here's just one example:
I had a friend in the early 80s that had an Ovation (a 1537 of all things, boy, was I enveous!), and I remember him saying to me more than once that if he ever found a good sounding all wood guitar with similar electric capabilities, he would ditch the Ovation in a heartbeat and buy it. I lost track of him shortly thereafter so I don't know what became of the 1537, but I'll bet he traded it for a Martin or some other wood box w/ a pickup in it. And that's just the kind of mentality Ovation has been up against for years. To make matters worse, I don't think they did their image any favors by getting so heavily involved in the off shore built market. Offering almost identical looking "cheaper" versions of thier US built guitars has only muddied the waters and, IMHO, had a lot to do with people's continuing negative view of Ovations in general. |
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Location: Tennessee | It's a herd mentality. People don't necessarily have a negative view of otherwise good guitars, they simply are bigoted towards what they have. It manifests itself in insisting that what you have is better. And it feeds upon itself, and is why when people get to this board they end up with a bunch more Ovations. And why P&W players for the most part have or want Taylors. Go to a Takamine board. Go to the UMGF. Go to the Taylor board. Go to the Ibanez board. Go to the Washburn board. Go to the Fender board. And on and on. We are just as guilty as "they" are ... we do our share of bashing other manufacturers who on the whole make very fine guitars.
Ovation is doing just fine. They're selling everything they can make in New Hartford. The quality is generally outstanding. The sound is all it's own. And they can touch a lot of casual musicians via it's asian line. Which I might add are VERY good guitars compared to much of the other guitars from that region, although other manufacturers are catching up. My hat's off to Ovation for keeping it's good name after off-shoring ... imagine what Gibson fans fell like after their name is on all those cheap, crappy Epiphones and the new WalMart guitars.
Sorry for the rant. |
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Location: North Texas | Rant on bro, some of us don't mind at all. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | In my opinion Jeff has hit the nail right on the head. Look at it this way - If I owned a store that sold dog shit, I would 1) understand the buying habits of my customers, and 2) stock what I know I can turn easily and for a profit. If the majority of the public wants to buy poodle shit, than that is what I'm going to stock. Yes, German Shepard shit may have some special qualities that appeal to a few, but if poodle shit is what puts bread on my table, than poodle shit is what I'm going to sell.
Now, that's all well and good. But of course the lovers of German Shepard shit are all up in arms because they believe that German Shepard shit is superior to all others and if only the general public would try it, they would come to the same conclusion. But the public can't even try it because the big bad dog shit store owner (me) won't even stock it. But what motivation is there for me to stock it? It's a real catch 22.
The stalemate breaker here is the manufacturer. Somehow the poodles have (rightly or wrongly) got the world believing that their shit is the best. And as a retailer I like this because it's easy to sell poodle shit. The German Sheperds need to do a much better job of positioning their shit and make an all out assult on the poodles in the court of public opinion. A big part of this is artist endorsements. We've been through this over and over. As a retailer, it's a lot easier for me to sell shit that's used by famous artists than to try to convince some buyer that this other shit is just as good. Basically the majority of the buying public are posers. If they see so-and-so using German Shepard shit, then they will start demanding that I, the big bad dog shit store owner, start stocking German Sheperd shit. And not on some high shelf - right down low where people can pick it up and try it themselves.
Dave |
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Location: Spain | Well written although slightly full of shit! |
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Location: south east Michigan | German Shepards need to do a much better job of positioning their shit :D
I had to laugh at the mental picture of the concerned look on the dogs face while trying to do a better placement job.
Ahh-me...it has been a long day. :) |
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Location: East Tennessee | Unfortunately, in the eyes of most serious musicians, Ovation guitars have long since gone the way of leisure suits, bell-bottom polyester pants and denim sportcoats I agree is is an uphill battle to convince some players.
I still feel that for the money Ovation makes an excellent guitar. Why pay $2500 - $3000 for a Martin or Taylor when you can spend half that amount for a high quality excellent sounding Ovation.
I loved my polyester bell bottoms. Especially the checkered ones. :D |
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Location: SE Michigan | The problem is that those darn Chinese poodles will shit for a fraction of what a good American poodle will charge. |
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Location: North Texas | Stay! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It's difficult to call Dave's "analogies" analogies. On that one, I think he's got his head up his or his dog's ass. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | It's really a shame to be wasting this kind of argument over something other than politics. As long as we're all fired up, let’s shift over to the president or maybe religion. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | For the record, I do NOT have a dog. Dave |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | The humane society took them, I'm sure. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Geez, I share a few analogies and THIS is what I get ???
Back on topic, Elderly Music is basically a Martin house. Not sure of there is any formal relationship, but I've dealt with them and they are top notch when it comes to anything Martin. They carry all the best stuff and specialize in custom orders. Basiclly everything that GC is not. Is there an Ovation equivlent to this? Of course, I mean other than Al. I'm not looking to buy anyplace other than him, but just curious if there even is such a place and the Elderly of Ovations.
Dave |
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Location: SoCal | Oddly enough, when I was in the Guitar Center yesterday, they had more high end Ovations that cheap Celebs. They musta had 5 Elite LX's up high, along with several Elite T's (several flamed), and a Legend LX 12. All these guitars were up high where they couldn't be played. Down low, they had maybe 4-5 Celebs, a couple of Balladeer LX's, and a real old Artist (trade in). More high end then low. But the high end was up very high.... |
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Location: Avondale, AZ | StandingO, are you comparing Ovations to German Sheperd shit? |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | I stay kind of quiet and post once in a while on non-controversial topics, but seem to see a lot of Guitar Center bashing from time to time. This is by no means a defense of them, but sure seems to be a lot of mis-information and misunderstanding about Guitar Center and the current state of musical instrument retail. Have any of you thought about what they do that is right? Like or dis-like them, they are a promoting retailer with an excellent marketing and sales organization. Where else can a customer go to have such a wide selection of product lines available to them seven days a week? They are surviving and thriving in an industry that has undergone big changes in recent times. Hey, what happened to the small music store with 7 or 8 acoustics, a dozen electrics and six amps with a full selection of about a dozen different varieties of guitar strings on the wall? Moreover, where is the local hardware store or clothing store? Independent neighborhood grocery store? The answer is that things changed because they probably never did a good job of putting customer and product together and that moreover, all of us customers expect a lot these days from a retailer. In short, mom and pop did not make it and "big box" retail ate their lunch. Is there any dispute to the simple fact that Guitar Center has managed to give great access to many product lines to customers who previously did not have the opportunity to see and touch them? Hey, have you ever seen a "Don't touch" sign on anything in a Guitar Center store? Think about it. Yes, some of the guitars, not just the Ovations, might need a little maintenance, but you can touch 'em and play 'em. (I have actually taken guitars I have tried that need a little help to the counter and left 'em and they re-string and tweak 'em--so think about that before you grumble about one that does not play well--). An idea for us, rather than going to a public forum and grumbling about whether or not they had a guitar set up to our preferences. They are pretty good at putting a catalog in your mailbox, too. If you as a customer seek out the professional salesperson working in every department (and there usually is one), you will find that they really can help you with good advice and if they do their job, they are calling you once in a while to see how things are going with you--if that's not happening, you as a customer have not found the right guy and the guy who gave you poor service and bad advice is probably not working there any more; keep in mind that they hire musicians, who are in love with gear and unfamiliar with what makes a good salesperson. Guitar Center allows sales people to rise up in the organization according to their knowledge, skills, and drive to be successful. A few make it, most don't. Most everyone in upper level positions started on the sales floor, by the way. Regarding Ovation presentations in the stores: They are presenting products that will sell through and they are listening to customers through what moves through. It's how a retailer keeps the doors open and pays employees and the bills and replenishes inventory and drives manufacturers to provide valid product, and yes, they also promote items that manufacturers ask for help with, too. Placement and display of merchandise is carefully planned at management level and executed at store level. Anyone who has ever worked in organized retail will understand plan-o-grams. My observation in Guitar Center Stores is that they actually give a lot of display space to Ovations across a rather broad range of product from Celebrity to Elite, and of course there is an emphasis on the reasonably priced stuff; it's what sells and they are responding to the market. Another observation is that Kaman has gone, for many years, the way of providing too many price points for the sake of offering something to everyone, with low-priced items bearing the same brand at a fraction of the cost of the truly worthy high end stuff. In so doing, manufacturers really bring down the perception of the high quality product, especially if the sales person cannot explain features, advantages, benefits of the higher priced item to the customer who has not or refuses to do his homework to be an informed customer. It's a great thing when we as consumers actually find a salesperson who can help us make a decision adding his input to our existing knowledge, rather than tell us that something is simply "cool". I still flinch when I see some of the stuff which bears the Hamer name as I remember the spectacular instruments that originated in Chicago in the late seventies and early eighties (and that still exist, but try to find 'em anywhere but the NAMM show floor). Now we have these things that kinda look like Hamers and can't find the real hand-made USA stuff at all except by special order. Another example of the big taking over the small specialty manufacturer. Maybe Kaman took things to another level distribution wise, and kept the brand alive, but the quality of the name was definitely diluted by making these "sorta like a Hamer" Hamers. It's late, so no time for eBay thoughts. Maybe another posting day............ |
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Location: Yucaipa, California | ...there seems to be one area that's quite often forgotten: Ovations sound very good as un-plugged Acoustic Guitars! We seem to focus on the "Get Plugged In" mentality and neglect the very real fact that they can hold their own with any other "wooden" guitar unplugged. I have come to the place where I SELDOM plug in anymore... I think they just sound better mic'd!
Maybe the Advert Folks should tell people just how good these guitars sound UNPLUGGED!??? |
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| If I could find a mid-bowl center sound hole USA O' that sounded as good as my 1767 I might switch, but I'm still convinced the best acoustic sound comes from a deep bowl....also, great posts, StandingO and Prairie Dog...I know where you're coming from...
Die-Hard Deep Bowl Steve |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | This thread has gone to the dogs. Good ideas PD. Don't store it up so long, next time. Don't want you to explode. I'm going to GC to pick up another guitar tonight. I like being able to play the instruments. It's fun to test drive, even if you aren't going to buy. Sometimes it's the test drive that hooks you. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Very good thoughts Prairie Dog. It never occurred to me that Guitar Center salesmen are people too! (just kidding).
I actually have bought several guitars at GC, including a few high-end ones. They really do try hard.
I think some of us older stick-in-the-mud geezers just hate the in-your-face loudness of a typical GC, that and the slant of the product line towards younger tastes. The guitar center near me does have a seperate acoustic room and it helps a lot. And as you pointed out, the sales staff usually can't do enough to help you. I have never had a problem with them or an unresolved dispute. |
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Ovation & Guitar Center -- An Alternative View
