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Location: Upper Left USA | Then there wouldn't be any more Elctrical Contractors (this ones for Al) or Elected Officials! |
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Location: NJ | When it comes to Al's GarageProject, he would've "bagged his limit" LONG before the electrician got involved. . . |
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Location: Evansville,IN | They could never get rid of all the guns, because the crooks will still have them regardless. Just like no one is supposed to have automatic weapons either, but the crooks have them, because they don't give a damn about the laws, because they're crooks! All this does is it keeps automatic weapons out of the publics hands. :rolleyes:
The ban on assault weapons was a joke. They didn't need a ban as not that many people had them anyway. Now the the ban has sunsetted, no more people are being killed now by assault weapons than there was before. :rolleyes:
One country (Germany) did confiscate everyone's weapons, but we see how that turned out. They don't bother killing people in the UK with guns they just stab or beat them to death. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. |
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Location: closely held secret | Lest we forget (as many left-thinking polititians would like us to...), the Constitution protects our right to bear arms to protect ourselves and our families from danger. This includes protecting ourselves from and abolishing our own government if it should become neccesary.
There will always be evil people in this world. I have no intention of giving up my constitutional rights because others abuse thiers. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Stonebobbo commented: 13,000 people die every year from guns (non-suicides). Statistically, this equates to deaths vs. owners of .017%.
80,000 people die every year in car crashes, and far more people are maimed. As a statistic, this equates to deaths vs. owners of .035%.
If we are serious about reducing senseless deaths, let's get rid of all the cars. Gee wiz, lets think about this one, cars do some good things right? Like take people to work, drive kids to school, take old people to see the doctor, etc, etc. What good things do guns do? What other function do they serve besides blasting holes in people? (hunting aside, I've nothing against hunting).
Also a car has to be licensed and insured, the driver needs a license, and has to renew the license every few years to prove they are still competent. Plus cars have to meet loads of saftey regulations. The NRA opposes even gun-lock laws.
What about guns? Any 18 year old can buy a long gun at any gun store or gun show. Most any 21 year old can buy a handgun with minimal checks, and then they have it for life. So even if they were competent when they bought it, years later when they turn crazy they still have it! Very convenient for shooting up innocent people down at the mall! What a country! |
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Location: SE Michigan | Sorry Stonebobbo, but one other issue I have with your comment:
More to the point, let's look at some places like Rwanda and Sudan, where political leaders ruthlessly and indiscriminately murder hundreds of thousands of people because only the government has guns. Can't happen here? I don't believe it ... I don't trust our politicians as far as I can kick them. I'm sure there are one or two of them that would have made a move if they thought they could get away with it. And THAT'S what the 2nd Amendment is all about. There are places where the citizens are better armed than the government, one such place is Somalia. The men drive around in trucks with machine guns and try to hi-jack cruise ships while their women and children starve and die of disease. They are also fond of shooting at aid workers who try to help them. Sounds like a swell place. Or what about that Mexican town where every time someone gets elected as mayor the local drug lords kill them? Also sounds like a great place. Heaven help us if the citizens are ever better armed than the government in the USA.
I have been the victim of crime a few times, but so far my government has never tried to harm me or take me out. Actually, it’s not so much the average criminal I fear (I don’t trade in drugs or hang out in gang neighborhoods). Who I really fear are the crazy lunatics who snap one day and start shooting. |
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Location: Tennessee | Yeah, you're right. Let's throw out the Constitution ... it's made this country a horrible place to live. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Yeah, you're right. Let's throw out the Constitution ... it's made this country a horrible place to live. When they wrote the constitution, there were armed Indians living in the woods. There were also skirmishes with England and Spain. There were also no state police, national guard, or county sheriffs. You were pretty much on your own.
They also did not allow women to vote and Africans were allowed to be owned as personal property. Times have changed a bit. I know it is complete speculation, but I’d bet that if our founding fathers could see how the 2nd amendment is being used to defend firearm insanity, they would be outraged.
One other thing, If the government wanted to take you down, do you really think any fire-arm you might have would stop them? I’ve been in the military, and I can tell you they have great toys. They would go through these little backyard militia clubs like a chainsaw through Jello. Did you see what happened to the armed resistors (criminals) at Waco or Ruby Ridge? What about Manuel Noriega in Panama? This guy had an Army, Navy and Air Force. Do you really think that you could stop them if they wanted to get you? |
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Location: SoCal | What purpose do guns serve? I think at last count, there were about 400,000 uses per year by gun owners in defense of lives and property against bad guys.
As to the car argument, insurance companies and and the federal government agencies (for the life of me, I'm having a brain fart and can't remember the of the agency -- National Traffice something something something), pound into us that "speed kills". If that's true, and we really want to save lives, let's lower the national speed limit to 35 mph. Probably save several hunderd thousand lives a year.
As for Dave's arguments regarding kids getting killed in homes by guns, if you break it down the study, you find out that "kids" are defined as anybody under the age of 18 and the studies basically talleyed whether or not guns were in the home when people died (they could have died from heart attacks, butcher knife wounds, murdered by hand, etc). Those studies are quite flawed.
Lastly, in countries like Great Britan and Austrailia, where guns have been confiscated, gun violence is down, but overall violence is up quite a bit.
I'd personally feel safer in an armed society. It would certainly be a polite society (and in states where it's legal to carry, violence is certainly not up).
Brian, how long did it take to get comfortable with the controls on your Taylor? And how often to you use it as compared to you LX? |
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Location: NJ | get a grip guys this site is for guitars and linguistic meanderings not hot button political topics take it to private e mail |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Is this the hygometer post? |
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Location: Midland, MI | Don't trust anyone over 30! The man is keeping you down! Henry's destroying the guitar industry! Are you going to San Francisco? Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair!!!! Down with the establisment! Drop out, tune in, turn on! (or was it turn in, tune on? tuna?)
:eek:
Oh, wait, that thread's been gone for a while...sorry! ;) |
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Location: SoCal | Brian's a good guy and I enjoy passing thoughts back and forth with him. Besides, if you'll notice, I did bring the topic back to guitars..... |
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Location: North Texas | I refuse to do any Christmas shopping at a Somalian mall. |
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Location: SoCal | I qualified expert in pistol and rifle for the 22 years in the Marine Corps. Fired just about every Soviet Bloc, Chinese, etc., hand weapons. We won't count things like the Ontos (Greek for "The Thing") with six 106mm recoilless rifles - one of those military "toys" that you'd like to park on your front lawn :D
I have been in areas (last was Cedar fire in San Diego) where there was a disaster and no police support. Personally, glad I had a 12 guage "survival" shotgun. A couple of times, seeing the barrel of a Mosberg was enough to get the "suspected" scavengers moving out of the area.
I never plan to fire the weapon at someone but if we have a quake in SoCal, breaking down support, it may be necessary to protect my family and neighbors.
Prior to buying, waiting period and background investigation. A lot of the 18-year olds in this city might have trouble with the background check. |
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Location: SoCal | oops, didn't see Al's comments...back to guitars. how do I put a couple of pups on my Mosberg? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | I'm too new here to jump into a gun thread, but...
I only wish guns and gun operators were licensed like cars and drivers. If they were, I could get an operator's license in any state and expect reciprocity in the other 49. Try that with a right to carry permit and see how far it gets you in New York.
Up until a few years ago, I was a pretty good handgun shooter. A shoulder injury pretty much ended that for me, but in my prime I was good for ten for ten in the X ring at 50 yards with either my .22 or my .45. The guy at my range used to make comments like "I wish I had your ammo budget", because I shot at least 100 slow fire rounds per day. For me, it wasn't about the cost of the ammo, it was about the time. It is amazing how accurate you can get if you have good eyesight and a steady hand. I'm talking eyeball accuracy at 50 yards. With iron sights. One handed.
I've largely gotten away from that now. My right shoulder is hamburger, and my left elbow is a nightmare of tendonitis. I'm not sure how much longer I will be able to play guitar. But for now, I get by. Serious shooting is out of the question. I can't hold my target .22 for more than a moment before my shoulder breaks down. Time was I would spend two or three minutes sighting in a shot. No more. The only pistol I have that I can hold is my 10 meter Olympic target Brno Chameleon. That thing is sick. It shoots like it has eyes.
Anyway, Brian, don't impune all gun owners. The vast majority of us know what we are doing, and are no more a threat to you than the average golfer. I agree that in a perfect world, we would keep guns away from the crackpots, but don't loose track of the fact that they are dangerous because they are crackpots, not because they have guns.
Cheers!
Jeff |
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Location: SoCal | "average golfer" :eek: :eek: :eek:
I've seen some "golfers" that can be pretty deadly. Shanks, slices, et al. One guy must have hit 300yds at a right angle across three fairways. |
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Location: NJ | ". . I refuse to do any Christmas shopping at a Somalian mall . ."
Agreed.
(The FoodCourt SUCKS.) |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | " I refuse to do any Christmas shopping at a Somalian mall . ."
Agreed.
(The FoodCourt SUCKS.)
LOL!! :D
Good one Cliff!! Hey, I wonder iftehy have any Guitar stores there??? :eek: |
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Location: SE Michigan | Alpep, I stopped posting this thread when you asked, but since others have commented please allow me one last post then I promise I’ll stop.
P.I.Moody commented I think most gun owners do a pretty good job of being responsible. I have been doing some research. Did you know that Mark Chapman (murderer of John Lennon), Nathan Gale (Murderer of Dimebag – Darrel Abbott), and John Hinckley – (Shot President Ronald Reagan) all used guns that they legally owned? Also many of the people acquainted with these criminals commented that they were once normal guys, nothing to make you think they would become psychopaths.
I am not in favor of banning guns or gun ownership; I am however in favor of some sanity in licensing guns. Once you legally purchase a weapon, it is yours for life. What happens if you go crazy later?
You have to renew your drivers license every four years and pass a basic test, if we do this for automobiles such a measure seems completely reasonable for gun ownership. Remember a gun is a lethal tool, and in the hands of a wacko is a deadly weapon of mass destruction.
Al asked us to stop, if any one wants to continue this discussion email me. |
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Location: SoCal | Ok, last comment for me as well. You named 3 people out of millions of legal gun owners. Want to take a guess at the death rate on the highways by legal drivers who have to renew their licenses every 4 years? I would guess that it's much much much (tack on a whole lotta much's) higher than the rate of deaths attributed to legal gun owners.
Out here in SoCal, a few years ago, we had somebody plow his car into a children's day care center.
By the way, has anybody noticed that Brian and I are conducting a discussion, not an argument? I'm guessing that Brian's having as much fun with this discussion as am I and that next year in CT, people will see us laughing together as friends should, and picking a little guitar together. |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | Now there's a thought. Picking guitar in CT!!
2006 OFC Factory Tour!! Man, I can't wait! |
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Location: Utah | All right, then. Keeping calm.....
For those who are open minded on gun control, there is a good book called "More Guns, Less Crime" by Dr. John Lott. It is certainly not the only study out there, but it is a very good summation of the overwhelming data on gun control.
At every level from local to national to international, it is clearly and irrefutably true that when the barriers to gun ownership by law abiding people are lifted, violent crime goes down significantly. When barriers such as prohibitions, licensing, fees, waiting periods, etc are enacted, violent crime increases.
Another very important factor to consider is that criminals commit their crimes regardless of the laws against murder, rape, mayhem, carjacking, child molestation, home invasion, robbery etc. So, laws prohibiting gun possession or that make lawful possession difficult, expensive, or time consuming, will have zero effect on the criminals. And, as is irrefutable, when law abiding citizens own fewer guns as a result of the onerous laws, the violent crime rate increases. Gun control is counterproductive.
Rates of suicide and domestic murder are not affected by gun ownership. The method of the crime changes, but the frequency of the crime does not.
When discussing child shooting deaths, the devil is in the details. Many times you will find that the definition of "child" includes youths up to age 19 or even 23. The vast majority of those over age 14 who suffer gunshot deaths are involved directly in a criminal activity that leads to the shooting. The incidence of accidental deaths to those under 14 is quite low compared to what the mainstream media and political activists would lead you to believe.
There are many things vastly more dangerous to our kids than lawfully owned guns, yet there is no clamour to outlaw them. The list includes things like footballs, swimming pools, doctors, mothers, motor vehicles, and bicycles.
Of course we all want a safe society and we want our kids safe from accidents. The facts show that the hype about gun control is just politically or ideologically driven.
If you want to point to Britain as an example of low gun crime or low violent crime, you would be wrong. They have seen an explosion of gun crime and violent home invasions since they have enacted draconian gun restrictions.
Lastly, there is the moral aspect. All of the above is a practical argument, but the moral aspect is critical. The Second Amendment protects a human right that exists for all people. It is not a right granted by the government, but rather the entire Bill of Rights was written to protect "natural rights" and to limit the power of the government. The 2A was written in order to secure our individual rights to self protection, to secure the homeland against invasion, and to secure the right of the people to secure their liberties against an oppressive government should one arise.
Gun control only affects law abiding people, and it directly infringes on your individual rights to self protection, to protect your family, to protect your country, and to protect your liberties.
OK, now I'm going to do my best to avoid postingon this issue again. |
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Location: SoCal | Token reference to guitars - is owning an Ovation or Adamas a right or a privilege?
Ok, back to the discussion.
Is gun ownership a right or a privilege? Driving a vehicle is not a right. You can drive without a license or insurance - that is until caught. However, you can be denied issue, or have it suspended or revoked.
We limit legal gun purchase. Felons have lost that privilege. This ties to identity and trust of our government. I favor the most accurate national ID - I carry for life my Marine Corps ID which says "INDEFINITE". Anyone who served in the military has a national ID, whether on active duty, reserve, former, or retired. As our resident P.I. would affirm, it wouldn't take that much to find someone who had gotten off of active duty in 1980. What about DNA, medical records, etc. Good enough for the military, good enough for all.
So, I also agree with weapon restrictions, registration, and certification (both initial and requal). Ever check out the requirements for a concealed weapon? At least in California, this is not just "given".
Sorry, I don't believe in government "storm troopers" or "black helicopters" searching out gun owners. Register them, license them, require renewal, etc.
Going back to a credit card advertisement...
cost of weapon and lock: $450
cost of shells: $10
cost of case: $35
cost of license: $50
cost of protection, if needed: PRICELESS
cost of an Ovation/Adamas: always a great deal for the value.
What would Jefferson do? As his 1st cousin, believe he'd buy an Ovation. |
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Christmas Shopping Isn't Safe Anymore
