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Posts: 14
Location: Spain | Hi All
Seems to be a lot of snobbery about the USA made guitars. I'm looking at my first Balladeer, 1771.
I just can't justify to myslef paying 1000 euros MORE for the same guitar just because the nuts and scrws were tightened by an American hand rather than a Korean one.....
Am I wrong saying that? or is there 1000 euros of real difference between the two guitars...
I'm talking here about Standard Balladeer 1771AX and 1771LX
Cheers for any advice
John |
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Posts: 3969
| It's not just who is tightening the nuts and screws.
The Pac-Rim guitars are lower cost not just because of labor, but because of less expensive materials. The top may be a lower grade of spruce. The fretboards are usually of lower quality wood than is found on US models, as are the woods used for the bridges. Neck woods are usually lower grade woods, and are not 5-piece for strength. The tuning machines are of lower quality (read less expensive). The amount of handwork involved, especially in things like dressing the frets (making sure they're all even, and the side edges don't protrude and hit your fingers), making sure the binding is scraped smooth and even with the body, buffing out light overspray, etc. is nearly non-existent in the Pac-Rim.
You get what you pay for, and you should get what you're happy with. If those things matter less to you than the difference in cost, by all means the Pac-Rim model would be "better." |
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Posts: 7210
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Snobbery is a good word LOL..
With the USA model, you are also (or maybe even primarily) paying for the Warranty. The extra craftsmanship must be worth something as well.
The main difference I see in the end product is really the consistency of the craftsmanship and materials you get on the USA line. There are MANY great imports built, but I would want to try-before-buy any import, where I would buy a USA made Ovation over the internet without question. In Guitar Center I have seen side-by-side, same model imports where one is flawless, and they other... well.. I'll just say issues.
That's not to say the occasional oops doesn't happen in Hartford as well... but that's where that warranty comes in.
To answer you question, as much as I'd like to support my fellow countrymen, I personally feel an extra $500, maybe a little more, for a USA Balladeer is reasonable, but $1000 seems a bit much for essentially the same guitar, ESPECIALLY when you factor in what you can buy a vintage USED made in USA Balladeer for these days. I realize shipping to Europe is going to be a little extra as well, but still.... |
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Posts: 14
Location: Spain | Fair enough! thanks !
USA model it is then...
Funny that Ovation (supposedly a great guitar manufacturer) would have their guitars built in Korea and have, as you say, frets too big, uneven, cheap woods, bad craftsmanship etc....not a very good marketing ploy is it? |
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Location: Spain | As side note, I wish I lived in the U.S, so much choice !!
:-( |
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Location: NJ | e mail me with what you are looking for and I will see what I can do. I am sure that it will not be 1K more |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "frets too big, uneven, cheap woods, bad craftsmanship etc."
I think this is where the things get a little fuzzy.
It's not that the frets on imports are "uneven" just maybe not as even as you will see consitantly on a USA model. It's not that the import craftsmanship is bad... it's just not as good.
This may seem like a subtle difference, but as you point out... Making a guitar that sucks would be bad marketing.
Ovation focuses on delivering GOOD guitars at multiple price points. Where other manufactures may take a crap guitar and tons of bling to it making it an "expensive".... crap guitar. Ovation focuses on providing a good guitar at and higher pricepoint and at a lower pricepoint.
The higher one has better workmanship and materials, the less expensive doesn't have as good workmanship and materials.
This model has served to put guitars in the hands of many of us who otherwise may not have had the opportunity to even play a decent guitar.
And I guess that's the ticket. You can get a "decent" import from Ovation with pretty good reliability, but you can get a stellar USA made one and know you are paying for substance, not just more bling like many others. |
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Posts: 1281
Location: Ohio | Guess I got lucky then....I have a Ruby Burst Celebrity Dlx, and the fit, finish and workmanship is great. Acoustic sound is weak, but it is a SSB....
Steve |
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Location: NJ | and if the day comes when we don't have a choice..... I can hear the complaints already |
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Location: Spain | It's all too bloody confusing :-(
I think I'll stick with my Takamine for a while, even though I'm bored of the sound now.. |
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Location: Spain | I got a reply from Ovation telling me "The quality of both is the same, just that you get a BETTER TOP on the Korean"
?? is that true? |
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Location: closely held secret | I guess that depends on what you asked them. |
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Location: Spain | Well, clearly I asked them the difference between both models...
Is that true that the top is better quality on the Korean guitars then?
Does anyone actually have a Korean Balladeer? how's the sound etc? |
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Location: Tennessee | They probably thought you meant Korea vs. China.
I have an Ultra that was made in Korea with final assembly and QA in the USA. It's a fine guitar but in all respects it is a notch below the US guitars I have.
Nothing wrong with Takamines either. |
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Posts: 14
Location: Spain | I defeinately specified USA made vs Korean made.
yeah I love the Tak, just always wanted an Ovation, and I'm a little bored of the muddy tone now (it's EN10C).
Hmm dunno :-(
Maybe a company that makes guitars in 3 or more different countries is best left alone!Mind you I suppose the same could be said about most guitars now.. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I think we tend to speculate a lot (guess). John did the right thing and ask the factory for the real answer and there you have it.
Good going. |
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Posts: 381
Location: Miami | I don't know about the balladeer, but I can speak directly to the difference between the woodtops of an American Elite T and a Korean Elite TX, and perhaps it is a similar situation with the balladeer. An O rep gave me the same pitch about the supposedly better wood, and my testing showed the opposite.
The wood on the original American is reported to be "A" spruce whereas the newer Korean is "AA" spruce. In what sense "AA" is supposed to be better than "A", I have no clue. I can say that it is visibly thicker, and acoustically deader. Perhaps when they say "superior" they mean thicker or stronger, but this also means the wood will not vibrate as freely as the older "A" spruce, given similar other factors. I do not find the craftsmanship of the Korean model notably inferior to the American, but the difference in woodtops makes that very difficult to determine.
The same thing holds for the necks. Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that it is SO much easier to vibrato, bend and slide notes on ANY ebony necked O that I have played than on ANY rosewood necked O or Adamas that I have played, that here again it is definitely not a question of craftsmanship but of the wood chosen. I won't go against anyone who says they feel that rosewood neck is no less playable than ebony, but on the models in question here there is no doubt that the move from ebony to rosewood was a step down, not up.
One important note (as I noted in my other post): I have been addressing the unplugged sound only. Plugged in we have a curious reverse scenario, depending on the electronics. Because of the older electronics (thinline pickup and OP30) of the American versus the newer electronics of the Korean (OCP-1K pickup and OP-PRO), some of the Koreans will actually sound better plugged in than their older American counterparts. This speaks not only to the newer electronics, but also to the good build quality of the Korean elite models, which I had questioned before.
In summary, I don't care what the factor may say about the "better wood tops" of the overseas models. The ear begs to differ, and this has nothing whatsoever to do with American bias or the placebo effect. I have played the American and Korean equivalents side by side (I'm talking about a dozen different O's, not just one or two) and both musicians and non-musicians can hear the difference WITHOUT me telling them which one I was just playing. 100% of the time the American (unplugged) sounded unmistakably better.
Some of the Korean O's happen to sound better plugged in only because of the newer electronics. And here is where I can back up my objectivity. My main gigging guitar is in fact a Korean 1868TX because it simply sounds better plugged in than any of the American equivalents with older electronics, including even the older Adamases. But given the same electronics, or given a side by side unplugged comparison, the difference is so obvious that it is misleading to suggest that the Korean wood tops are in any shape or form "better". Thicker, yes. That much is visible. But better? No sir. And that's the God's honest objective truth.
I apologize for the length of this post, but this issue is very near and dear to my heart after spending many hours over the course of about a month testing the differences both in the studio and at the gigs. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Grading wood is about as subjective as beauty contests and I don't think there are any objective standards for grading wood based on tone for guitar tops.
I bet bearclaw spruce is low grade, but I prefer the sound of my 04 Custom Legend to the Adirondack spruce in the 2010 Collector. |
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Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Oops. I just realized I posted in the Welcome area (I came here via a link from the General area). Sorry about that. |
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Posts: 14
Location: Spain | Thanks for all the repies! great post Joe. Very helpful!
I think I'll leave Ovations for a while, too many codes/woods/differing build qualities/good or bad electrics etc...
Have to try to get excited about my old Tak again ..or try to find a spruce top Tanglewood or something (at least with those I know that for 500€ I would get a great guitar with no build issues!)
One day if I have 2000€ to buy a USA made Legend or something like that...
Thanks again people!! at least your a friendly lot here :-) |
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Posts: 381
Location: Miami | No problem, John. Just one last piece of advice: it seems you are leaving Ovations because of the confusion over "codes/woods/differing build qualities/good or bad electrics". Please don't associate this with Ovation! Talk to someone who has Tak experience like we have Ovation experience, and you'll find the same confusion.
So, don't force yourself to get excited over your old Tak! Forget all of the mumbo jumbo that Ovation fans like myself are sharing. Play your Tak for a couple of hours, then go to a store and play an Ovation and let your ear and your heart decide :-)
I think that's better advice than any talk of technical details! |
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Posts: 3969
| Originally posted by ''Jukebox Joe'' Tuñón:
...let your ear and your heart decide :-)
I think that's better advice than any talk of technical details! Best advice yet. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Excellent points Joe. I had been working on a post for two days now and keep just trashing it as it would have to be a book. But based on your post I think my thought can make more sense.
Yes, as someone pointed out, grading wood is subjective. Both guitars have A or AA wood. So neither is garbage. I also don't know if Ovation treats all their wood the same, but those of us that have been there know that when they get high-end AAA or AAAA wood, they then RE-grade it, and take the best of the best.
My bottom line point is... unlike some other brands... It's NOT that the Korea made guitars are crap and USA Made guitars are great. It's that the Korea Made guitars a good guitars, and the USA made guitars are better. That is also reflected in the price.
As Joe has demonstrated. Use your ears. That's the best way to determine which is best for you. |
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Posts: 14
Location: Spain | Found a model I would like to go and try, then spend the next year saving up to buy... :-)watch this space!
2079lx, I am in love with it, haven't even played it yet. Still don't want to get rid of my Tak or use it as a trade-in, so it's gonna be saving all the way...
Cheers for all the advice and tips people! some guitar forums are just full of sarcasm and show-offs, not here! |
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Posts: 381
Location: Miami | Originally posted by elguiri:
Found a model I would like to go and try, then spend the next year saving up to buy... :-)watch this space!
2079lx, I am in love with it, haven't even played it yet. Still don't want to get rid of my Tak or use it as a trade-in, so it's gonna be saving all the way... Wow! That one's a beauty!
Cheers for all the advice and tips people! some guitar forums are just full of sarcasm and show-offs, not here! Wow! That one's a beauty!
;) |
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USA vs Korea..
