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Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Posted by a Lowden owner who was having some problems with intonation above the 6th fret... George ask for some measurements in a prior exchange to diagnose the problem.... It's interesting.
Hello George;
> Here are the measurements you asked for:
> 1st String 2nd String
Crown of 12th fret to bottom of string 1.79 mm 1.98 mm
> Nut to crown of 12th fret 323.85 mm 323.85 mm
> 12th fret crown to edge of saddle* 323.45 mm 325.44 mm
* - edge closest to soundhole, not to point of contact
> The top surface of the treble saddle looks very round, no distinct high points. However, there appears to be a slight groove where the 2nd string passes over it.
Response from George Lowden:
Firstly, your action is low and that would tend to make the tuning a tad FLAT as you go higher up the neck!
As the scale length at that time was 648mm. and taking into account that the top nut should be placed about 0.3mm closer to the first fret than the mathematical position would indicate, that means that the distance from the top nut to the crown of the 12th should be 648 divide by 2 = 324 less 0.3 ... ie 323.7 Yours is OK for position in
fact as long as the slots are not worn to the point where the string break point is not at the front of the nut.
The distance for the first string from crown of 12th fret to the
FRONT EGDE of the saddle on the high E string should be 648 divided by 2 = 324+ 0.5mm = 324.5 for normal action height. ( this 0.5mm compensation assumes a break point 0.5 to 0.75 back from the front
edge of the saddle) However in practice, as your saddle appears to be a little too close to the 12th fret, if your string action was
higher you would have to make the break point of the string close to the back edge of the saddle ... not really good because the string would have little bearing width on the saddle top. However, your action is low and therefore I think if the break point is in the middle of the saddle that would give you a compensation of about 0.6mm which might be enough for such a low action.
Sounds to me like your bridge saddle may well be a tad too close to the 12th fret, but also for sure the treble saddle will need a little careful profiling to make sure the break point is ideal,
Hope that helps, ... let me know how it goes, |
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Posts: 4413
| Those are very small tolerances. Who'd be a luthier?
Can you explain the Buzz Feiten method in words of one syllable? |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | shite. |
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November 2006
Posts: 217
Location: Snåsa, Norway | Did an intonation job, very amateurish, on my cheapo uke guitar and it worked, made that little thing playable. See this thread
;) |
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Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | The intonation was off on the Hurricane I picked up last may just before the OFC tour. I fixed it the easy way, although it took a little time. I hooked up a tuner and took readings at both the nut and the 12th fret, then tuned the strings and made adjustments at the bridge until the readings were consistent, or as close to consistent as possible. After completing all 12 strings, I repeated the process two more times. Some of the strings were way off, but it sounds great now. |
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Location: Tampa, FL | I have long been curious about intonation, especially since I have been working on some finger style pieces that use open strings in conjunction with others fretted at the 12th, 14th, 15th, and 19th frets. You will find out really quick if you have intonation issues in this type of situation.
From my experience I have found the primary influencers (e.g. culprits) of intonation have been, in order:
1-Old strings
2-Poor tuning job starting out, which is kind of related to the old strings since it gets increasingly difficult to tune old strings properly.
3-Bad fretting technique
Again, in my experience, each of these and all of these probably contribute much more than a half a millimeter one way or the other. Of course, it's usually more satisfying to blame the guitar. |
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November 2004
Posts: 4413
| It is noticable that strings that are "in tune" according to the built in tuners are way out when you take a trip up the fretboard.
According to an accurate chromatic tuner the human ear can't hear +/- 3%, but if one string is minus 3% and the next string is +3% and then the next string is plus 2% you end up with a guitar that is way out of tune the minute you wander past the third/fifth frets. I've always found the answer is to tune to the built in tuner and then start playing octaves high up the neck. If you adjust there you should be pretty accurate.
I still think we should all be using the Feiten method, but guitar makers are too mean to spend the money. If temper-tuning is the only way to tune every other concert instrument then the refusal of guitar makers to use the same system is just them being cheap.
I defy anyone to use even the most sophisticated rack strobe tuner and not need to adjust the tuning hiogh up on a non-Feiten guitar. Guitar makers are bsasically cheap and lazy. Near eanough is good enough. Not. |
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Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| PS The point about bad fretting technique is spot on. I'm so guilty of this - play a note, think it's out of tune, play it again with a little care and attention and bingo, it wasn't out of tune at all. The lighter gauge strings you use the more pronounced the problem. And I use super-wuss strings......... |
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Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Fretting... |
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April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | But is n`t the guitar a well-tempered instrument,otherwise fret-positioning would have to be individually calibrated,I have seen a guitar like that,made by a luthier in danmark,he said it would only be correct with the right string-gauge,the Buzz Feiten tuning does not do away with intonation problems,it does ,however,make the guitar sound "sweeter",personally ,I do not notice much difference,if any at all,My Wash, J-9 has the Buzz Feiten intonation,and I use a KORG DT-7 tuner (specifically made for Buzz F. tuning),I tune my axes a little flat with it,(Green light to the Left of the Red center lights up too),Great tuner ,highly accurate,a little big,does not fit in the case-compartment...oh well.. :)
Vic |
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Low Action & Intonation
