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Dualing Parlors...

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DanSavage
Posted 2019-01-24 11:16 AM (#546714)
Subject: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

And, so it begins.

This project is a re-top of the two 5741 parlor guitars seen below.

The one on the right is Jonmark's and the one on the left is mine.

His will get torrefied Adirondack and mine will get torrefied Englemann. Both will be A-braced with torrefied Adi spruce.

Both will get shell purfling, his probably abalone and mine maybe black MOP. His will have tortoise-shell binding and I'm leaning toward black on mine. I was originally going to do cream, but I think the black will compliment the black MOP better.

His will have the standard 5741 rosette. Mine will have an inlaid Custom Balladeer rosette. Both are seen below.



Lastly, I'm thinking about glossing my neck/head stock. His will remain stock.

Neither will be sunburst.

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Patch
Posted 2019-01-24 11:26 AM (#546715 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
May 2006
Posts: 4144

Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent

Well this should be fun to watch! Whoever gave you the idea to work on parlors.

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DanSavage
Posted 2019-01-24 12:19 PM (#546716 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I started by removing the tops from both guitars.



That's when the fun began.

Ovation installed the purfling/binding in a non-standard way. Here's what the binding/purfling off these guitars looks like.



The problem is that they routed a slot that's deep enough for both the purfling and the binding. This leaves a full-depth groove in the body that's .125" (1/8") deep. The routed groove should only be .0625" (1/16") deep.

Here's what a standard binding/purfling groove should look like. The purfling is normally 1/2 the height of the binding, so a stair-step groove needs to be routed. As I noted above, the problem is that Ovation made the purfling the same height as the binding so the groove left behind is twice as deep as it needs to be. Ugh!



The simplest fix will be to glue some .060" thick purfling to raise up the inner portion of the groove so that it's level with the lining. Once these are glued and leveled, I'll be able to glue the top to the body which will overlap the filler purfling. This will allow me to route the top correctly later on.



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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-01-24 12:51 PM (#546718 - in reply to #546716)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
Hey Dan... I changed my mind. Did you keep the old top?

Just kidding.
Here we go!
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-01-24 1:13 PM (#546720 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Sure thing.

It's in a little rougher shape than before I started. It'll fit right into the current trend of distressed guitars. LOL!
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d'ovation
Posted 2019-01-24 1:52 PM (#546722 - in reply to #546716)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 770

Location: Canada

DanSavage - 2019-01-24 12:19 PM

 The purfling is normally 1/2 the height of the binding, so a stair-step groove needs to be routed. As I noted above, the problem is that Ovation made the purfling the same height as the binding so the groove left behind is twice as deep as it needs to be. Ugh!

....

The simplest fix will be to glue some .060" thick purfling to raise up the inner portion of the groove so that it's level with the lining. Once these are glued and leveled, I'll be able to glue the top to the body which will overlap the filler purfling. This will allow me to route the top correctly later on.

Thanks for sharing this new project. The approach os using same height binding and purfling seems to be much simples than the stepped approach with extra groove and different heights. Why not simply use purfling of the same height as binding? Or if that's not available why not glue a strip of flexible dummy material behind the binding under the purfling?

 

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DanSavage
Posted 2019-01-24 3:15 PM (#546723 - in reply to #546722)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

d'ovation - 2019-01-24 11:52 AM

Thanks for sharing this new project. The approach os using same height binding and purfling seems to be much simples than the stepped approach with extra groove and different heights. Why not simply use purfling of the same height as binding? Or if that's not available why not glue a strip of flexible dummy material behind the binding under the purfling?

Yeah, it's simpler for them to do when building the guitar from scratch. But, it's non-standard, even for Ovation and makes the re-topping process much more difficult because there are no off-the-shelf components that can duplicate the process originally used on these guitars. (read: cheap-out)

Purfling is only available in heights of just over 1/8" (.125")

What you suggest is not possible because both of these guitars are going to get shell purfling, which requires an upper groove of almost 1/4" deep. So, there would need to be filler pieces that deep. Any sort of filler piece would also need to be 1/4" deep.

Here's a pick of the deep upper groove required for the shell purfling.

Gluing the purfling now to act as a filler means that the top will be glued to it and the lining. Once that's done the normal grooves can be routed and the purfling/binding can be glued in the standard way.



Edited by DanSavage 2019-01-24 3:17 PM
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DarenSavage
Posted 2019-01-25 12:36 PM (#546750 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 98

Oooh. High level stuff right here.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-01-25 10:01 PM (#546758 - in reply to #546750)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Yep.

The main difference between this and model airplanes is that there's no moneykote to hide the sins...
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-01-27 5:46 PM (#546801 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
Happy Birthday Dan.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-01-27 8:18 PM (#546804 - in reply to #546801)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Jonmark.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-24 6:27 PM (#547147 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I jointed both tops, routed them for the rosettes and glued the rosettes in yesterday. These are now ready to take to the wood shop and have them thickness sanded.

I still need to route the sound hole in my top. I didn't do it yet because I need to round the inner hole and I want to do that after the top is leveled.

I had to route out the hole on Jonmark's guitar because of how the rosette is glued to the top. Basically, it rests on a shelf instead of sitting in a groove like mine is, and like most guitar rosettes are inlaid.



It would have been extremely difficult to route out the sound hole after the rosette was glued in. In the pic below you can see the under side of the sound hole. The stock sound hole in the top is a little smaller than mine, but since the inner edge of the rosette is what defines the size of the sound hole, it won't alter the tone.



One of the tasks that needed addressing is the way these bodies were routed for binding/purfling. I talked about that about above so I won't belabor it here.

I glued the binding filler pieces today. Here's Jonmark's bowl with the filler pieces being glued into place.

Here's mine, all ready to have the top gluing surface sanded level.

This filler piece extends the glueing surface for the top and leaves a .060" shelf for the binding and purfling.



Edited by DanSavage 2019-02-24 6:29 PM
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-02-25 8:36 AM (#547151 - in reply to #547147)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
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BCam
Posted 2019-02-25 11:35 AM (#547153 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
October 2014
Posts: 195

Dan, I wish you lived down the street from me so I could come over and look over your shoulder.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-02-25 5:01 PM (#547155 - in reply to #547153)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Bob,

It would be really boring. A lot of waiting while the glue dries punctuated by a few minutes of work.
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Love O Fair
Posted 2019-02-25 6:34 PM (#547159 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1111

Location: What week?
@Dan - >>>It would be really boring. A lot of waiting...<<<

That all depends on what you have in your fridge.
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-03-02 7:16 PM (#547189 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I got Jonmark's parlor top sanded, fit to the bowl and bridge located.



I got my parlor top sanded, fit to the bowl and bridge located. Unfortunately, I over-sanded the front of the top and burned through part of the rosette. Actually, all of the rosette, but the only part that is obliterated is the part next to the bass side of the fret board. Live and learn. Luckily, I sanded Jonmark's top second, so I knew to stop while I was ahead.

My top getting braced.



I'll pull this out of the gobar deck tomorrow, then epoxy on the aluminum reinforcement strips. I'll also glue down the braces to Jonmark's top and will be ready to start gluing tops Monday or Tuesday.

Jonmark,

On my guitar I'm moving the upper bout strap button from the bass bout to the treble bout. I've found it makes the guitar easier to play when standing up with a strap. Would you like me to move yours at the same time?

I'm planning to pull the old molly out and seal the old hole with epoxy. Then, drill a new hole on the treble bout and install a new molly. I'll texture the old hole during the finishing process.



Edited by DanSavage 2019-03-02 7:17 PM
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2019-03-02 7:46 PM (#547190 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 482

Location: moline,illinois
Those are looking good Dan,sorry to hear about your rosette is there a way to touch it up??
Looks like an A brace design bet it will sound killer, is it easier to use the aluminum reinforcement strips I seem to recall you talking about fiberglass strips on older custom legends you rebuilt,thanks for sharing the pics I love following your work!
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-03-02 9:28 PM (#547191 - in reply to #547189)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy

DanSavage - 2019-03-02 7:16 PM

Jonmark,


On my guitar I'm moving the upper bout strap button from the bass bout to the treble bout. I've found it makes the guitar easier to play when standing up with a strap. Would you like me to move yours at the same time?

 

Sounds good Dan. Played with that strap arrangement for many years.

Projects are looking great.

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DanSavage
Posted 2019-03-02 9:29 PM (#547192 - in reply to #546714)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

My top at bat and Jonmark's on deck, pardon the pun...

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DanSavage
Posted 2019-03-02 9:34 PM (#547193 - in reply to #547190)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
2wheeldrummer - 2019-03-02 5:46 PM

Those are looking good Dan,sorry to hear about your rosette is there a way to touch it up??
Looks like an A brace design bet it will sound killer, is it easier to use the aluminum reinforcement strips I seem to recall you talking about fiberglass strips on older custom legends you rebuilt,thanks for sharing the pics I love following your work!


Thanks.

I thought about trying to touch it up, but they're MOP, so not much can be done other than remember that the thickness sander takes off more wood than I think.

Yep, A-brace. I use whatever the base guitar had on it. In these cases, it had the aluminum. You're correct, the older A-brace had the FG, but those got retired in favor of the aluminum. No doubt a production cost consideration. Both work equally well, but the aluminum would require less prep due to the perforations which give the epoxy some tooth.
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arumako
Posted 2019-03-02 9:52 PM (#547194 - in reply to #547189)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 846

Location: Yokohama, Japan

DanSavage - 2019-03-02 9:16 AM

I got Jonmark's parlor top sanded, fit to the bowl and bridge located...

I got my parlor top sanded, fit to the bowl and bridge located...

Thanks for sharing another exciting BFLG Project with the Master, Dan! Are you going to be tapering the tops for these; do you think torrefication negates the need for tapering?

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DanSavage
Posted 2019-03-03 12:58 PM (#547198 - in reply to #547194)
Subject: RE: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

arumako - 2019-03-02 7:52 PM

Are you going to be tapering the tops for these; do you think torrefication negates the need for tapering?



Hi Ken!

Yes, I usually try to taper all the Ovation tops I do. Mine aren't tapered as much as the factory tops,, but they are tapered. The factory tops have about .020" taper. Usually about .120" at the top and .105" or so at the bottom. Mine are about half that. I like the tops to be about .110" at the top and .100" at the bottom for steel string and .100" top and .090" bottom for nylon strings.

Does it help with the tone? I couldn't say. Mine have so little taper that for all practical purposes they aren't tapered. If you measure them with digital calipers you can see it's tapered, but to the eye, it's pretty much invisible.

I've found the thickness itself has more effect over tone. Thicker tops sound stiffer than thinner tops. Paul's 1617 and Daren's 1528 both had torrefied Adi spruce tops that I sanded on the thicker side, about .120" top, .110" bottom. They both sounded a really good, but a little stiff when they were first built. After a year of playing the tops have loosened up and now they both sound great.

Now I thin them a little going down to .110"/.100" because I've found that it helps the guitar sound better right from the beginning.

Speaking of tops, mine is out of the gobar deck and getting its aluminum splints epoxied into place. I'll glue it to the bowl tomorrow.

Jonmark's top is getting braced. It'll get the same routine as mine and probably get glued to the bowl on Tuesday.



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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2019-03-04 10:40 AM (#547203 - in reply to #547198)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
Exciting!
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DanSavage
Posted 2019-03-05 12:09 AM (#547208 - in reply to #547203)
Subject: Re: Dualing Parlors...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Jonmark Stone - 2019-03-04 8:40 AM

Exciting!


Yep! Won't be long now. I'm figuring it'll be ready to ship to you around the end of the month.

I got the top glued to my guitar. I'll glue yours tomorrow.

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