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Patch's Parlor Build...

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tpa
Posted 2017-12-05 3:22 PM (#538247 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 433

Location: Denmark
Thank you for the answer. Nice work. You really master a lot ...
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-05 6:26 PM (#538248 - in reply to #538243)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

DanSavage - 2017-12-05 8:42 AM

Thanks, Daren. We've been down this molding road a couple of times, haven't we?

Yup. Lots of pieces, parts, and heartbreak. So long as it's with my brah, it's all good.

Edited by DarenSavage 2017-12-05 6:28 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-05 6:46 PM (#538249 - in reply to #538247)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA
tpa - 2017-12-05 1:22 PM

Thank you for the answer. Nice work. You really master a lot ...


You're welcome and thanks for the kind words.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-05 6:48 PM (#538250 - in reply to #538248)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA
DarenSavage - 2017-12-05 4:26 PM

Yup. Lots of pieces, parts, and heartbreak. So long as it's with my brah, it's all good.


Even now, the days of heartbreak have fond memories for me because my brah was a part of the process.
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-05 7:13 PM (#538251 - in reply to #538234)
Subject: RE: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

DanSavage - 2017-12-04 8:03 PM

This is why I built the plug to be disassembled and with the hole in the insert. I've had too many plugs stuck inside the mold. I unscrewed the parting plate from the bowl/insert which gave me access to the bowl/insert. I had to pretty much destroy the MDC insert to separate it from the bowl. This would allow the bowl to flex enough for me to pour water down in the gap between the bowl and the mold.


I just reread this.

Question, since it seems the surface of the hollowed MDC has less adhesion to the parting plate than the bowl does inside the mold, have you thought about temporarily attaching the insert to the parting plate with screws, then separate the bowl/mold as you did before, but mostly pre-cut the insert as a disposable part of the molding process?

While it was probably a RPIN to destroy the MDC, it's a fair trade-off.

Oooh! High-end stuff!

Edited by DarenSavage 2017-12-05 7:17 PM
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-05 7:41 PM (#538253 - in reply to #538250)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

DanSavage - 2017-12-05 6:48 PM
Even now, the days of heartbreak have fond memories for me because my brah was a part of the process.

Yah, man! What a great bunch of memories. Triumph, heartbreak, long late hours and early mornings on the road.

Edited by DarenSavage 2017-12-05 8:01 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-05 8:44 PM (#538256 - in reply to #538251)
Subject: RE: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA
DarenSavage - 2017-12-05 5:13 PM

I just reread this.

Question, since it seems the surface of the hollowed MDC has less adhesion to the parting plate than the bowl does inside the mold, have you thought about temporarily attaching the insert to the parting plate with screws, then separate the bowl/mold as you did before, but mostly pre-cut the insert as a disposable part of the molding process?

While it was probably a RPIN to destroy the MDC, it's a fair trade-off.

Oooh! High-end stuff!


I got it wrong, sorry. It's MDF, not MDC. (medium density fiberboard)

Yes, I agree. You and I have been down this road too many times for me to think that the plug and mold would separate cleanly. (it didn't) So, I designed this with the worst-case scenario in mind. LOL!

Actually, I just used a pair of water-pumps (channel lock pliers) to destroy the insert. It went pretty fast once the first section was broken away. That's also why I 'glued' the bowl and insert using silicone.

The insert and the parting plate were screwed together with four screws. When I pushed the wedges between the mold and the parting plate, the plate flexed because there were too few screws to keep the plate from flexing, even though it was 3/4" thick. But, the mold flange was also flexing and even cracked in a couple of spots. More screws may or may not have kept the insert and flange from flexing.

In this case, the only thing that saved the day was that the bowl was pretty flexible, so I was able to force the wedges between the bowl and the mold after I'd pulled the insert from inside the bowl. As I forced the wedges between the bowl and the mold I poured water into the gap to soften the PVA. Eventually, as the perimeter of the bowl was able to be pulled away from the mold I got to the point where I used the water-pumps to grab onto the bowl and was able to work the bowl out of the mold.

In retrospect, I did the right thing by molding my bowl first. This has me re-thinking how I'm going to mold Patch's bowl. The SMC is not nearly as flexible as the woven cloth deep bowl, so I won't be able to use the same technique I did on the deep bowl. In the past, I've read that some modeling guys (on RCGroups) like to make their molds flexible so that it makes it easier to de-mold the plugs, and eventually the molded fuselages. So, I'm thinking of going down this route.

Instead of making a completely rigid mold like I did with the deep bowl, I'm thinking about ditching the surface coat and instead laying up the mold like I used to lay up the fiberglass parts so the mold will be flexible enough to be pulled away from the plug. This will entail laying up a 1-3/4-oz layer, then a 5-oz. layer. This will prevent any print-through of the cloth into the mold. I'm even thinking of ditching the flange in the initial lay-up.

Once the mold is separated from the SMC bowl, I'll reinforce it with additional layers of the 17-oz. tooling cloth I used on the deep bowl mold to make it completely rigid. To this end, I'm thinking of applying some dacron peel ply fabric to the top of the 5-oz cloth so that the 17-oz tooling layer will have complete adhesion. This is the same stuff we used to use on the seam of the Su-27 inlet duct seams. It will allow good adhesion without sanding. Then, once bowl and the mold is separated, I'll add the flange.
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marenostrum
Posted 2017-12-06 6:26 AM (#538262 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
August 2007
Posts: 997

Location: Tuscany, Italy
Super DAN !
As always, very informative post. I can't wait to see how it ends up ...
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-06 11:51 AM (#538267 - in reply to #538262)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Riccardo.

Me, too! :D
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Love O Fair
Posted 2017-12-06 12:12 PM (#538268 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 950

Location: What week?
Reading above, it sounds like the Savage brothers are buttering each other up for premium Christmas presents this year.. so we'll expect a full report on the results of that afterward. Oh, and please don't forget this year's family photo, including Greta!
please-thank-you

Edited by Love O Fair 2017-12-06 12:21 PM
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-06 9:06 PM (#538279 - in reply to #538256)
Subject: RE: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

DanSavage - 2017-12-05 8:44 PM
I got it wrong, sorry. It's MDF, not MDC. (medium density fiberboard)

Yes, I agree. You and I have been down this road too many times for me to think that the plug and mold would separate cleanly. (it didn't) So, I designed this with the worst-case scenario in mind. LOL!

Ahh, the heartbreak part.

Instead of making a completely rigid mold like I did with the deep bowl, I'm thinking about ditching the surface coat and instead laying up the mold like I used to lay up the fiberglass parts so the mold will be flexible enough to be pulled away from the plug. This will entail laying up a 1-3/4-oz layer, then a 5-oz. layer. This will prevent any print-through of the cloth into the mold. I'm even thinking of ditching the flange in the initial lay-up.

Once the mold is separated from the SMC bowl, I'll reinforce it with additional layers of the 17-oz. tooling cloth I used on the deep bowl mold to make it completely rigid. To this end, I'm thinking of applying some dacron peel ply fabric to the top of the 5-oz cloth so that the 17-oz tooling layer will have complete adhesion. This is the same stuff we used to use on the seam of the Su-27 inlet duct seams. It will allow good adhesion without sanding. Then, once bowl and the mold is separated, I'll add the flange.

I think all of this is a great idea. I'll just throw out another one. You have a perfect test bed in your deep bowl. You don't have to go through the complete flange adding and strengthening process for this test.

Once the plug is pulled out of the mold, you'll know if the technique will work and then move onto Patch's bowl. You already have a rigid deep bowl mold, so the test is really to see if the flexible mold will work.

This would ensure that the technique will work without risking Patch's bowl (you can thank me later, monetarily Patch ).

Edited by DarenSavage 2017-12-06 9:09 PM
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-06 11:06 PM (#538281 - in reply to #538268)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

Love O Fair - 2017-12-06 12:12 PM

Reading above, it sounds like the Savage brothers are buttering each other up for premium Christmas presents this year.. so we'll expect a full report on the results of that afterward. Oh, and please don't forget this year's family photo, including Greta!
please-thank-you

No, mon, I already have my dream guitar. While a parlor might be nice, my Custom Ultra sounds so sweet when played lightly that it's perfect for my parlor.

Happily, Greta is waiting with her sis Frannie for me at the Rainbow Bridge. I'll collect them on my way to heaven.

Edited by DarenSavage 2017-12-06 11:29 PM
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Love O Fair
Posted 2017-12-06 11:56 PM (#538282 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 950

Location: What week?
Daren... my sincere condolences. I'm sure they'll both be happy to see you.. but we all rather hope it's later than sooner. And yes, your beautiful Custom Ultra still stirs envy in me.. no doubt.. and I don't even have a proper parlor to play in. I used to, but my wife stole it for a sewing room! So I one-upped her and turned the den into a studio... and I can say with certainty she's not going to be happy when I convert the kitchen into a shop like Dan's! That's what she gets for turning the garage into a workout room. It's a constant battle around here, I tell ya!
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-07 11:14 PM (#538302 - in reply to #538282)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

Thanks LOF. The Jr. B Girls and I had a great run together, pun intended. Greta and Frannie were littermates and remembered each other from puppyhood. There were a couple of initial squabbles like any siblings who get back together after being apart, but they learned pretty quickly he who buys the food makes the rules. The first rule is everyone has to get along.

The Jr. B part comes from their racing names; Jr. B's Greta and Jr. B's Frannie. Here's video that I managed to get their first summer back together when they were still puppy enough to love running together. While they would occasionally run together at the bark park, they never ran like this again. Once we had a treat of 4 greys running together at the bark park-Yowza! It was like a canine tornado. The other dogs just watched saying to themselves, "WTFudge?!"

I don't have video of Frannie racing, but I was able to download Greta's first 16 races at Bluff's Run in Iowa. Here's a video of her winning her second Maiden (training) race.

Here's a video of Greta racing on 06/06/06. Seriously.

 Back on topic. My Custom Ultra means a lot to me on several levels; spiritually, brotherly, and musically. I appreciate your kind words. I don't have a parlor, unless you want to count my living room.

Ha ha! Enjoy the couch. I hope it's a comfy one.



Edited by DarenSavage 2017-12-07 11:28 PM
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Love O Fair
Posted 2017-12-08 2:41 PM (#538307 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 950

Location: What week?
Awesome videos. It's nice that you are able to have the keepsake footage. And speaking of nights on the couch.. I think I'm going to try out your line, "He who buys the food makes the rules" on my wife. See if I can get my "parlor" back. Wish me luck.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-08 7:08 PM (#538311 - in reply to #538307)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA
When my wife and I have a disagreement, I always get in the last word -- it's usually, "Yes, dear"...

Edited by DanSavage 2017-12-08 7:09 PM
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-09 2:23 AM (#538315 - in reply to #538307)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

Love O Fair - 2017-12-08 2:41 PM

And speaking of nights on the couch.. I think I'm going to try out your line, "He who buys the food makes the rules" on my wife. See if I can get my "parlor" back. Wish me luck.
Good luck, but I'm not laying any money on your outcome. She'll probably come back with something like, "She who cooks the food makes the rules."

This is why I recommend every man tests a new couch to see how comfy it is in case you have to sleep on it for a night or three.



Edited by DarenSavage 2017-12-09 2:53 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-09 9:52 AM (#538318 - in reply to #538279)
Subject: RE: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA
DarenSavage - 2017-12-06 7:06 PM

Ahh, the heartbreak part.

I think all of this is a great idea. I'll just throw out another one. You have a perfect test bed in your deep bowl. You don't have to go through the complete flange adding and strengthening process for this test.

Once the plug is pulled out of the mold, you'll know if the technique will work and then move onto Patch's bowl. You already have a rigid deep bowl mold, so the test is really to see if the flexible mold will work.

This would ensure that the technique will work without risking Patch's bowl (you can thank me later, monetarily Patch ).


That's a fair suggestion. If I make a flexible mold on the outside of the parlor bowl with no flange, it'll be much easier to remove, so I don't think there will be any risk to Patch's bowl.

Also, since the MDF insert is no longer inside, the deep bowl is really too flexible to make a flange-less mold and there's no way to mount the bowl for the lay-up. Plus, I really don't want to make another insert.
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-12-11 2:17 PM (#538322 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 86

Thanks for the explanation. All of that makes perfect sense. I'm looking forward to see how it turns out.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-15 12:58 AM (#538350 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: RE: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA

So, it's been a couple of weeks.

I sanded the outside of the deep bowl mold so the fiberglass splinters don't cut up my hands while handling it and trimmed the flange.

Now, this is ready to mold deep bowls. I've got some 8.5-oz 2x2 twill cloth on order, so I will probably mold a test  bowl in the next couple of weeks or so.

I would have been done with the parlor bowl mold a few days ago, but I ran into a problem of my own making. Read on.

Since I'd planned to mold the parlor bowl and flange in two steps instead of one, I prepped the bowl and parting plate by waxing them and applying a fresh layer of PVA.

I mounted the bowl so it was about an inch off the parting plate, cut the cloth pieces I needed, mixed up the epoxy and laid up the bowl. Under normal circumstances the epoxy will start to gel, or what's known as the green state in a few hours. It's not gooey or tacky, but not yet fully cured. It's at this stage that it's easiest to trim.

After a few hours, the epoxy was still gooey. Given how slowly it was curing, I figured it would be a few more hours before it was green, so I turned on the heat lamps, then went to bed. When I got up in the morning, I checked it and it wasn't as gooey, but it was still was very soft and still very tacky. So, I carefully trimmed the edge of the bowl and left it under the heat lamps until I got home from work.

When I got home, I checked it and it was still very tacky. Weird. Since it hadn't been quite the full 24 hours for the epoxy to reach full cure, I left it for a couple more hours. I checked it again and still very tacky.

Hmmm... Normally, epoxy only acts like this when it's either very old, or not mixed properly. I knew I'd measured it carefully, so I checked the label on the can of hardener, which tells the proportion of mixing.

Whoopsie! I found the problem. The surface coat is mixed by weight to a ratio of 100:11. The epoxy is mixed by weight to a ratio of 100:27. I'd mixed the epoxy using the surface coat ratio, which means that I'd only put in less than half the amount of hardener than what was needed. No wonder it never cured.

Luckily, I'd put a layer of PVA on the bowl before I started, so I was able to carefully roll the epoxy and glass off the bowl leaving it pretty clean. I also cleaned the uncured epoxy off the parting plate using denatured alcohol.

Time to start over. I waxed the bowl and the parting plate and sprayed a fresh coat of PVA. (again) I cut new pieces of cloth while I waited for the PVA to dry. This time I carefully mixed up a new batch of epoxy using the correct ratio and started the lay-up again.

The 1-3/4 oz. and 5-oz cloth is on.



I added a strip of 17-oz tooling cloth to reinforce the center of the bowl, then another layer of 5-oz cloth on top of that.

I let this cure until it was green, then trimmed the lay-up so it was flush with the top of the bowl and let it cure for 24 hours.

Once it was cured, I separated the bowl from parting plate and fully sanded the outside while it was still on the plug so it was ready for building up the flange.



The bowl is separated from the plug and both are in good condition.

I cleaned up the parting plate, waxed it and added a fresh layer of PVA. I set the bowl onto the parting plate, then put a couple of small sand baggies on it to keep it from moving while I built up the flange.

Surface coat has been added to make the flange and to build up the fillet area between the bowl and flange.

Once the surface coat had kicked over to the green state, I removed the sand baggies and added tooling cloth to the sides and flange, then a final layer of tooling cloth to the bottom of the bowl. I turned on the heat lamps and left it to cure overnight.

Success! I removed the mold from the parting plate, trimmed the flange, sanded the outside so I don't cut up my hands and trimmed the flange.

I washed off the PVA and it is now ready to mold parlor bowls.



Phew! Finally I can get back to the process of building Patch's guitar.



Edited by DanSavage 2017-12-15 1:03 AM
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2017-12-15 1:14 AM (#538351 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10274

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Fun, fun, FUN!
And very educational.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-12-15 8:40 AM (#538354 - in reply to #538351)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1815

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Art.

The only thing left on these molds is to glue on a couple of legs to the upper bout area of the flanges so they sit level.

I'll do that when I get ready to lay up the test bowls in a couple of weeks. Right now, I'd rather step away from the molding process and build Patch's guitar.
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2017-12-15 10:06 AM (#538358 - in reply to #538354)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1328

Location: Gnashville
Great stuff Dan. Thanks for taking us along.
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Patch
Posted 2017-12-15 12:30 PM (#538359 - in reply to #538354)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
May 2006
Posts: 4112

Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent

DanSavage - 2017-12-15 9:40 AM  Right now, I'd rather step away from the molding process and build Patch's guitar.

I LOVE YA MAN!!!!

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DetlefMichel
Posted 2017-12-15 12:43 PM (#538361 - in reply to #537422)
Subject: Re: Patch's Parlor Build...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 528

Location: Muenster/Germany
Again very exciting , almost incredible. How will you manage to build the structural reinforcements neccessary where the neck is going to be mounted? Do you want to copy the inside of the original bowls or do you have even better ideas?
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