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???? 1778T(orrified)...

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Mark in Boise
Posted 2017-02-25 12:21 PM (#532948 - in reply to #532937)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12514

Location: Boise, Idaho
DanSavage - 2017-02-24 4:01 PM

Hi Mark,

Thanks. What is it you like about the deep bowl vs. contour?

This is really subjective, but I think the deep bowl has more bass. I can't really compare apples to apples, though. Both my contour bowls have cutaways and are much newer than my deep bowl Ovations. One is Adirondack spruce and the other is Koa. Seven of my deep bowls are center sound hole. Three are Adamas, so the only spruce top deep bowl Elite I have is the 1537, which has been played a lot and it's tough to compare anything with that.
Besides that, I've never liked the feel of the contour bowl. My stomach doesn't fit the contour. I know that doesn't really affect the sound, but I like the round bowl pressed against my stomach. I also think the contour bowl was a cop out to the unjustified criticism of the round back.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-02-25 12:39 PM (#532950 - in reply to #532947)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Love O Fair - 2017-02-25 9:50 AM

@Dan -->What this is telling me is that less sound hole area of the Elite style could balance out the tone of the guitar to account for the loss of volume of the cutaway guitar. Could. Not does, but could."<--

If you actually have the sample guitars on hand you can record them each in the same fixed environment and input values, then expand out the waveform (both directions) to closely inspect the differences. I've found this to be helpful on various instruments and ambient sounds, though keep in mind that with guitars it involves the human factor of plucking/strumming with equal force and sustain during each sample for the most accurate readings. You can also record with various input values and environments within a wide range desired sampling criteria. I have to wonder how we ever survived the old days with nothing but green scopes and curves!


Interesting experiment. Right now I don't have the tools, nor enough of the sample instruments on hand to conduct it.

Right now I'm more keen on rebuilding existing designs to see how they sound with torrefied tops and braces.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-02-25 12:42 PM (#532951 - in reply to #532948)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Mark in Boise - 2017-02-25 10:21 AM

This is really subjective, but I think the deep bowl has more bass. I can't really compare apples to apples, though. Both my contour bowls have cutaways and are much newer than my deep bowl Ovations. One is Adirondack spruce and the other is Koa. Seven of my deep bowls are center sound hole. Three are Adamas, so the only spruce top deep bowl Elite I have is the 1537, which has been played a lot and it's tough to compare anything with that.
Besides that, I've never liked the feel of the contour bowl. My stomach doesn't fit the contour. I know that doesn't really affect the sound, but I like the round bowl pressed against my stomach. I also think the contour bowl was a cop out to the unjustified criticism of the round back.


Gotcha.

Yes, I agree. I think the criticism of the round back to be unjustified. The most common is that the bowl 'slips' off the lap of the user. Unfortunately, this is one that has been around since the beginning, which led to the use of the non-slip applique to the treble bout waist.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-02-25 12:44 PM (#532952 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: RE: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Top being glued.

Yes, that's the 1612 next to it.

Once the glue on all the tops is cured, I'll grind off the excess in preparation for routing the binding and purfling channels.

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DanSavage
Posted 2017-08-31 9:57 PM (#537267 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: RE: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Sooo...

Getting back to this project...

I glued the purfling and binding to the body.



Tape is off and it's ready for scraping.



Purfling and binding is leveled to the top and the bridge is masked.



The rest of the masking is in place and ready for finishing.



First coats of the finish are on. Now, it's time for spraying and sanding, spraying and sanding, etc...

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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2017-09-01 12:27 AM (#537269 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 9939

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
That top is beautiful.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-01 8:28 AM (#537272 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Art.

It reminds me of Koa.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2017-09-01 11:27 AM (#537275 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15094

Location: SoCal
Dan, Are you going to put on epi's or leave it plain?
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Love O Fair
Posted 2017-09-01 1:45 PM (#537277 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 459

Location: Spin axis of a California map
Dan, do you know.. is the collective square inch total the same on those holes as to equal the classic center hole?

PS-- Nice top. I really like the symmetry of the darker grain.

Edited by Love O Fair 2017-09-01 1:56 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-01 2:22 PM (#537278 - in reply to #537275)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
moody, p.i. - 2017-09-01 9:27 AM

Dan, Are you going to put on epi's or leave it plain?


Leave it plain. I'm only building this to hear how the Elite quintad braces sound in torrefied wood.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-01 2:24 PM (#537279 - in reply to #537277)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Love O Fair - 2017-09-01 11:45 AM

Dan, do you know.. is the collective square inch total the same on those holes as to equal the classic center hole?

PS-- Nice top. I really like the symmetry of the darker grain.


No. They're all different areas. I previously measured the size of the holes, then calculated the different areas.

1) Center hole: 4" diameter, 12.56 sq. in.
2) Full body Elite: 11.27 sq. in.
3) Cutaway Elite, bass & treble holes: 7.126 sq. in.
4) Cutaway Elite, bass-only holes: 5.63 sq. in.

Thanks. It's just an off-the-shelf Stewmac torrefied Sitka spruce top, but they do have some really nice examples, such as this one and Ken's 1612.

Edited by DanSavage 2017-09-01 2:25 PM
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arumako
Posted 2017-09-02 8:36 AM (#537286 - in reply to #537278)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 644

Location: Yokohama, Japan
DanSavage - 2017-09-01 4:22 AM

I'm only building this to hear how the Elite quintad braces sound in torrefied wood.

Beautiful work and documentation as usual, Dan. The silking on these Stewmac tops are really something to behold; but the torrefied top with the torrefied K-5 bracing combined with the bowl (I swear torrefied tops and lyrachord bowls are a match made in heaven) on my 1612 really give the guitar a sensitivity that is unparalleled. It's gonna be really interesting to see what the torrefied quintad bracing will do for this Elite. The darker hue of the torrefied tops really make the "-4" finish stand out. As much as I love the Epi's they might just interfere in this particular case...kinda glad you've decided to go with the non-Epi finish.

Edited by arumako 2017-09-02 8:38 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-02 10:09 AM (#537287 - in reply to #537286)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Ken.

Yes, the torrefied K-5 braced top sounds very similar to the torrefied A braced top. One of the aspects of this brace pattern that a lot of people like is it's balanced tone between bass and treble. I like their sound, too. But, the tone is too muted for my taste which is why I got rid of all my A-brace Os.

When I did the 1717 I got to hear what the A-brace sounds like on a torrefied top and the difference was dramatic. It still has the balanced tone, but it was alive with sound. It still has the A-brace sound, but like it's on steroids.

I'm hoping to hear this kind of enhancement of the Elite sound on this guitar.
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Love O Fair
Posted 2017-09-02 1:57 PM (#537289 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 459

Location: Spin axis of a California map
Dan, thank you for the measurements. The reason I was asking... I was wondering what it would sound and look like if a cutaway Elite's bass side were just one hole with the same area as the small ones (leaving the treble holes as are). It would take a 2 3/4" diameter bass hole to match roughly close (producing slightly more area). Just a product of my own, crazy imagination, and also keeping in line with customary Ovation markings, the bass hole would require a rosette with traditional Ovation plastic and pearl construction, as well as making the ring more narrow in appropriate aspect ratio to the 4" one. The hole would seem a simple procedure, but how insanely difficult would it be to create that 2 3/4" rosette? A curve ball question, I know. Sorry. Just curious if you think it's at all practical.

Edited by Love O Fair 2017-09-02 2:23 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-04 9:01 AM (#537305 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: RE: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA

The actual rosette itself is an injection-molded plastic part that has the oak leaf pattern printed/silk-screened on the underside. The area where the pattern is located is inside a recess.

The pearloid/abalanoid or in the older Custom Legends, abalone sections, are glued into this recess.

Given how they're made, it would be pretty insanely difficult to create a rosette without the tooling.

You could have one created out of white and black MOP pieces by one of the many inlay specialists, but then the cost would be insanely high.

In a word, no, it's not practical. Speaking of impractical rosettes, I've always loved this one, which was on a prototype nylon-string Adamas.

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Love O Fair
Posted 2017-09-04 2:43 PM (#537315 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 459

Location: Spin axis of a California map
@Dan - "I've always loved this one, which was on a prototype nylon-string Adamas."

Holy moley! That's 22x enough guitar porn to keep my idea's vision satisfied (at least for now). Thanks for posting.
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-09-04 3:55 PM (#537316 - in reply to #537305)
Subject: RE: ???? 1778T(orrified)...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 70

DanSavage - 2017-09-04 9:01 AM


I love the Ovation Fractal Rosette. Wow! It takes me back to the wild days of my youth! Is there a black light poster of that?

Edited by DarenSavage 2017-09-04 3:58 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-11 10:32 AM (#537372 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: It's Alive!!!!



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA

The Frankenvation is all done.

So, I'm sure the next question on everyone's mind is "how does it sound?".

In a word, spectacular. It's everything one would expect from a quintad-braced Elite on steroids.

It's my new favorite brace pattern in torrefied spruce. It's got the balance of the A-brace with the brightness and sparkle of the X-brace.

Because it's a mid-depth bowl, I tried the PB extra light Elixir strings. It sounded nice, but was a little muted with no brightness at all. I restrung it with 80/20 extra light Elixirs and the guitar came alive.

I'll make a video in a day or so and post it to youtube.

Interestingly, I had the original bridge for the 1778T, but I didn't have a saddle/pick-up. So, I bought a graphtech saddle and a chi-com pick-up. Because of the compensation built into the saddle and the angle of the saddle slot in the bridge, the guitar has perfect intonation on all six strings.

It's the only Ovation acoustic I've played that has perfect pitch and I can say I like it and I'm definitely going to duplicate this set-up in the future.

Now that this project is done, I can move onto a couple of really interesting jobs. Stay tuned.



Edited by DanSavage 2017-09-11 10:34 AM
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2017-09-11 10:55 AM (#537373 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15094

Location: SoCal
I like it! The epi-less look is really good and the 1537 neck suits it well. Outstanding job Dan!
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2017-09-11 10:59 AM (#537374 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 370

Location: Muenster/Germany
Wonderful guitar. The top looks surprisingly fine without the epaulets. Pure Understatement.
How did you manage to fit the deep-bowl neck to the mid- bowl? Did you have to destroy the multiple wood layer at the bottom of the neck heel or could you use them?
(And this guitar would also look better with the metal-label of the old Ovations)
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-11 11:19 AM (#537375 - in reply to #537373)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
moody, p.i. - 2017-09-11 8:55 AM

I like it! The epi-less look is really good and the 1537 neck suits it well. Outstanding job Dan!


Thanks, Paul.

You're welcome to come over to play it any time.
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-11 11:28 AM (#537376 - in reply to #537374)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA

DetlefMichel - 2017-09-11 8:59 AM

Wonderful guitar. The top looks surprisingly fine without the epaulets. Pure Understatement.
How did you manage to fit the deep-bowl neck to the mid- bowl? Did you have to destroy the multiple wood layer at the bottom of the neck heel or could you use them?
(And this guitar would also look better with the metal-label of the old Ovations)


Thanks, Detlef.

Yes, I agree. I really like how it looks without the epis.

Luckily, both the neck and bowl have the two-bolt KB neck, so it was easy to bolt up.

WRT to the heel of the neck, it just hangs off the bottom of the bowl. Incidentally, the bowl is still silver like it is in this pic. That really contributes to the Frankenvation look.

This guitar is an experiment so I could hear how a quintad-braced O sounds with torrefied wood. Eventually, I'll use this neck for my wood-bowl Elite and have to find another neck to go onto this guitar. I'll make sure that neck is a medium-bowl neck so it'll fit properly. Because I knew this neck wasn't more-or-less permanently mounted to this guitar, I did not glue the fretboard extension down. This means the guitar really can't be played above the 14th fret, which is not a problem for me.

Then, once i have the proper neck, I'll paint the bowl, either black or brown, depending on the neck I acquire.



Edited by DanSavage 2017-09-11 11:32 AM
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2017-09-11 12:29 PM (#537378 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 370

Location: Muenster/Germany
I would have bet any money that you cut off the multiple layer, shortened the neck heel and reglued it, re-finished and re-polished the neck....you slack off!
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DanSavage
Posted 2017-09-11 3:28 PM (#537383 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1579

Location: Lake Forest, CA
If it were any other neck I would have considered it, but this one was from a 1537. LOL!
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DarenSavage
Posted 2017-09-11 10:17 PM (#537388 - in reply to #531909)
Subject: Re: ???? 1778T(orrified)...


Joined:
December 2016
Posts: 70

Ha ha, Frankenvation! The MS will never run out of funky names if they listen to us. That looks great. I can't wait to hear it.
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