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1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-09-25 4:33 PM (#528984)
Subject: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

In addition to the 1974 1111, I'll be rebuilding a 1985 Legend at the same time

I was alerted to this guitar by a friend on FB. As luck would have it, the guitar was being sold in the condition shown here by a fellow living close by me, so I was able to pick it up in person rather than having it shipped.



Even though the guitar came with no top I was able to test the OP24 preamp by plugging the pickup on my 1617 into it. Overall, the finish on the neck is in good shape, so it won't need refinishing. The fret board is also in good shape, though the frets are very worn and will need to be replaced. I'll be using EVO gold frets. The tuners are also in good shape.

I'm going to use an ebony Custom Legend carved bridge with a black pickup instead of the usual white one, which should look pretty cool. It will get the standard pearloid rosette.

As I've said before I'm going to use torrefied Sitka spruce for the top and I'm going to use A-braces on this one. I've got two examples of an A-brace top. The first one came off a 1976 1619, which was an engineering example. The A-braces are pretty simple.



The cross brace in the middle of the A is not notched. The fan braces below this are simple 1/8" thick pieces of wood with a tapered scallop. The sides of the A were joined with a single piece of spruce forming a lap joint.

The second came off my 1617 and are quite a bit more complicated. The cross-piece is almost twice as thick and is notched for the fan braces. The fan braces are also more complex. The have the same tapered scallop, but they're also milled so the cross-section is like one half of an I-beam, with the wider part forming the base that is glued to the top wood. The ends of the fan braces also have a dap of epoxy securing them to the top wood, no doubt to keep them from popping up if the guitar is bumped. Instead of a single scrap of spruce lap-jointed to connect the upper and lower parts of the A braces, it's got a molded fiberglass reinforcement.

The braces I'm going to use on this guitar will be a hybrid of the two styles. I'll use the wider, notched cross-brace with the fiberglass reinforcements. The fan braces will have the tapered scalloped profile, but without the milled cross-section. I could make a tool to mill the wood, but I suspect the cross-section had more to do with reducing warranty work than with sound quality.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-09-25 4:34 PM
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2016-09-25 6:24 PM (#528989 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 699

Location: moline,illinois
Very cool pics of the A-bracing and evolution over the years,do you have a CL bridge for this one or will you make your own?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-09-25 6:44 PM (#528990 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Thanks. I already have the bridge and the pick-up.

Interestingly, the finger braces and tone bars on the LX bracing used on my 50th Anniversary CL were also made with the same milled cross-section. Here's a couple of pics I took of the braces in my 2077AV50.

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SillyLittleBoy
Posted 2016-10-01 11:03 PM (#529076 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
July 2013
Posts: 98

Location: Des Moines, Iowa
I've not really thought a lot about the bracing, though I've been aware of the different patterns and all. In looking at these two my initial un-educated thoughts are that the LX bracing would allow for more of the top to be free/open and possibly provide for a fuller or thicker tone? There's just not much room between the braces with the fan pattern, whereas the LX bracing provides for some larger unhindered surface area for the top. It would seem that the top would resonate a bit more with the LX because of this fact. Is any of this actually true?

Very interesting... maybe...
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leonardmccoy
Posted 2016-10-02 3:29 AM (#529078 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 287

Location: Katmandu
The 2077AV50 is so cleanly braced -- not a single drop of excess glue -- it puts a lot of other guitars to shame. When I checked out a Gibson LG1 (or LG2) by chance recently, I couldn't believe my eyes how poorly the bracing was glued to the top and back.
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Love O Fair
Posted 2016-10-02 4:58 PM (#529083 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1769

Location: When??
I fully agree with Leonard... so incredibly clean... looks like something straight from the NASA white room. If that were my guitar I would print the photo and tuck it inside a thank you card mailed directly to the mother ship on behalf of those of us who admire their dedicated craftsmanship. I'm sure they'd all appreciate that.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-03 11:50 AM (#529088 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
After I got the guitar, I sent a note to the MS complimenting them on the fit and finish of these anniversary guitars. IMO, they're as nice as anything I've seen.
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arumako
Posted 2016-10-03 1:26 PM (#529090 - in reply to #529088)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
DanSavage - 2016-10-03 1:50 AM

After I got the guitar, I sent a note to the MS complimenting them on the fit and finish of these anniversary guitars. IMO, they're as nice as anything I've seen.

Hi Dan! Looking forward to following your progress. What kind of mirror is that? Looks really useful! I want one!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-03 5:23 PM (#529092 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Hi Ken,

Thanks. I haven't been able to work on these guitars this week due to prior commitments, but I'm back on the job now.

That's the Stewmac 3-piece folding inspection mirror. http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Inspect...

It's basically just three identical strips of mirrored plexiglass that are taped together so they z-fold into a strip that's narrow enough to fit through the sound hole. Once inside the guitar, you just unfold it. You could probably just make one yourself by going down to a local glass/mirror shop and having them cut three strips of mirrored plastic.

What I think is a really slick tool is their LED inspection light. It's got either 4 or 5 levels of brightness, is oct-shaped so it doesn't roll around, has built-in magnets and charges from a USB port or charger.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Inspect...

Edited by DanSavage 2016-10-03 5:25 PM
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-06 10:55 AM (#529160 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 751

Location: Muenster/Germany
The glue-drops at the end of the braces remind me to my old Gibson Mark guitar with the Kasha braces.
I learned from you a lot about the forward-shifted x.
Do you have any improvements for the classic A-braces in mind? I wouldn´t be surprised if your new topped "DS-A-BRACE" would easily blow off any other Legend Ovation...
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-06 11:15 AM (#529161 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 751

Location: Muenster/Germany

Another example of A-braces:
Custom legend 1769:

2. old custom legend 1619 (looks awful, sounds better)

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-06 11:37 AM (#529162 - in reply to #529160)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
DetlefMichel - 2016-10-06 8:55 AM

The glue-drops at the end of the braces remind me to my old Gibson Mark guitar with the Kasha braces.
I learned from you a lot about the forward-shifted x.
Do you have any improvements for the classic A-braces in mind? I wouldn´t be surprised if your new topped "DS-A-BRACE" would easily blow off any other Legend Ovation...


Except for using torrefied wood for the top and braces, I have nothing special planned for this. Since I don't have a way to mill scalloped cross-section, the fan braces will be like the early 1619. It will be a hybrid of the original 1619 and the later using the fiberglass reinforcements for the upper and lower A-braces and notched cross-brace, but with flat a-braces. As with all my guitars I will be using OBG to joint the halves and to glue the braces to the underside of the top. Not sure yet if I'm going to put glue-globs on the ends of the A-braces or not.

Yes, I'm really looking forward to hearing how a torrefied A-brace O sounds.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-10-06 12:02 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-06 12:00 PM (#529164 - in reply to #529161)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks for the pics.

DetlefMichel - 2016-10-06 9:15 AM

Another example of A-braces:
Custom legend 1769:

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leonardmccoy
Posted 2016-10-06 3:52 PM (#529169 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 287

Location: Katmandu
Detlef's photos just reminded myself that I wanted to remove the bridge's screw nuts of my Legend entirely so that when the bridge someday does decide to come off the top it can do so freely and without ripping the well-aged top apart in the process.

Edited by leonardmccoy 2016-10-06 3:54 PM
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-07 10:14 AM (#529175 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 751

Location: Muenster/Germany
Do you want to sell this guitar when it´s ready?
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-07 10:38 AM (#529176 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 751

Location: Muenster/Germany

I forgot to tell you that I meanwhile carefully fine-sanded the braces, I cannot live with such a mess, and see the real big hole in the top where the cables come out. It was so big that the low E string had barely material under it. The stereo pickup was broken anyway so I decided to transform the guitar into an acoustic.I filled the drilling hole with top-wood,


and made an exact matching piece of ebony to replace the pickup

and cut a nut for a bone saddle.

The guitar now sounds better than ever.

But enough from me, now I`m eager to see upcoming sequels of your new guitar series, which I follow just like I did with "Breaking Bad"

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-10-07 11:41 AM (#529177 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15653

Location: SoCal
Looks very cool. How does it sound? Does the saddle go all the way down to the guitar top?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-07 3:31 PM (#529181 - in reply to #529175)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
DetlefMichel - 2016-10-07 8:14 AM

Do you want to sell this guitar when it´s ready?


In all fairness, it's already spoken for. But, if that buyer decides not to take it, you're second on the list.

I'm not going to name the buyer. If they choose to come forward, that's up to them.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-07 3:33 PM (#529182 - in reply to #529176)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
DetlefMichel - 2016-10-07 8:38 AM

I forgot to tell you that I meanwhile carefully fine-sanded the braces, I cannot live with such a mess, and see the real big hole in the top where the cables come out. It was so big that the low E string had barely material under it. The stereo pickup was broken anyway so I decided to transform the guitar into an acoustic.I filled the drilling hole with top-wood,



Nice job on the conversion. Yes, the stereo pick-up does need a rather large hole because of the size of the cables.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-07 9:57 PM (#529190 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I jointed the top wood for this guitar today. I've made an appointment with my sanding guy for Monday to thickness sand the top.

While the glue is drying I cut the brace stock. Here's the basic A-braces.



And here's what it looks like compared to the original braces. The angles on the fan braces are approximate. I'll measure them for exact angles once the top is thickness sanded the top and cut out the outline and the sound hole.



Here's the aluminum A-brace reinforcements. The braces will be glued to the top wood using OBG, and the reinforcements will be glued using epoxy.

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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2016-10-07 10:31 PM (#529191 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 699

Location: moline,illinois
Very cool work as usual,if you tried to adapt the A-bracing to a 12 string would you add an extra cross brace by the bridge to support the extra tension.I've always wanted an A-braced Custom Legend 12 string and have been on the lookout for parts to create one.
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arumako
Posted 2016-10-07 11:08 PM (#529192 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Hi Dan! Thanks for sharing another very very cool project. Hope you don't mind a few questions...How thick are the aluminum reinforcements and did you perforate them yourself? Will you fine tune the bracing with your chisel after you mount them to the sound board or are they pretty much in their final condition? Really enjoyable stuff!
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tpa
Posted 2016-10-08 6:38 AM (#529195 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 555

Location: Denmark
Aluminum pieces are angled and glued to the outfacing sides of the bracing, I suppose. Apparently the ADII uses Alu reinforcements with varying success. http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=44...

Edited by tpa 2016-10-08 6:59 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-08 10:08 AM (#529199 - in reply to #529191)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

2wheeldrummer - 2016-10-07 8:31 PM

Very cool work as usual,if you tried to adapt the A-bracing to a 12 string would you add an extra cross brace by the bridge to support the extra tension.I've always wanted an A-braced Custom Legend 12 string and have been on the lookout for parts to create one.


Thanks, Kevin.

I never really thought about what changes would be made for an A-brace 12-string. I don't think an extra cross-brace at the bridge would do much to prevent bellying. Maybe just make these fan braces taller in cross-section.

Here's a drawing that shows what changes I would make. The top brace is the A-brace pattern I used. The bottom one is what I would use if I were to make an A-brace 12-string. The tallest part of the upper brace is 3/8" and tapers down to 1/4". The tallest part of the lower brace is 1/2" and tapers down to 3/8".

I would also make all of the other brace wood 1/2" thick instead of the 3/8" it is now.

A while ago I read the patent description for Adamas quintaid bracing pattern. One of the things I remember is the description of how a guitar top vibrates. Basically, it twists in torsion. The quintaid braces allow more twisting and the lack of a center sound hole prevents the top from warping due to string tension.

The A-brace looks to me, like a quintaid brace pattern that allows for a center sound hole. It seems to me that using taller braces that are still 1/8" thick, like the fan braces would help prevent the top from warping due to extra string tension, but still allow it to twist.

 



Edited by DanSavage 2016-10-08 10:09 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-08 10:11 AM (#529200 - in reply to #529192)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
arumako - 2016-10-07 9:08 PM

Hi Dan! Thanks for sharing another very very cool project. Hope you don't mind a few questions...How thick are the aluminum reinforcements and did you perforate them yourself? Will you fine tune the bracing with your chisel after you mount them to the sound board or are they pretty much in their final condition? Really enjoyable stuff!


Thanks, Ken.

The aluminum braces are 1/32" thick. (.032" or .8mm)

Nope. These came from the MS just as you see them. The braces are in their final configuration. These are pretty close approximations of the fan braces you see on the sound board to the left.
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