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CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly

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arumako
Posted 2016-06-03 11:51 PM (#525728)
Subject: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Hello OFC-BFLG!
This thread is a follow-up to my "Celebrity CC54i iDea dissassembly". The aforementioned thread was really to document the construction of the iDea neck/body joint. It ended up going deeper into the removal of the bridge, braces, and turned out to be a study in the general construction of the Asian made O. Along my merry "disassembling way", I discovered that "my" iDea was poorly assembled (my son has one that is assembled very well, plays and sounds nice), and even damaged during original production; however, I also found that the solid spruce sound board and general choice of materials was impressive. Convinced that a proper re-assembly would dramatically improve the performance of my iDea...well, that's what we're hoping to find out!

After practicing my ebonizing technique on a variety of wood blanks for my 1868 rebuild, my confidence level needed one more boost, and so I used my iDea as an ebonizing practice board...

Ebonized 1868 & iDea

At this point, the following is planned:

Repairs:
1.   Fingerboard extension - fill gouges and cuts
2.   Neck block - rebuild neck extension block and neck/body assembly area
3.   Gouges in the periphery of the sound board

Upgrades:
1.   Convert headstock to slothead
2.   CFRP bridge and bracing
3.   Convert to floating bolt-on neck
4.   General bling - binding, purfling, re-finishing, etc...
5.   Convert iDea Pre-amp auxilary input to a switchable aux-in/mic input with volume pots to connect "in-soundhole" mics (like the Tri-Ax for cool tube type piezo/air monitor mixing) or iRigs. Yeah, this is a long shot for sure!

A combination of these repairs/upgrades and careful re-assembly (over a very long period of time...maybe 6-months to a year...) should render this iDea into quite a user friendly instrument...well, that's the i..., never mind!

Starting with "Repairs". If the neck/block assembly areas are irreparable, then the project is moot anyway... And the first order of business is to repair the underside of the fret board extension.

neck extension

A mixture of epoxy/resin and CA glue filled in the gaps and cuts nicely. Added some chiseling, filing and sanding to smooth things out. As it turns out, the fret board extension is solid and in good shape. Whew! My wife also had a nice block of Japanese cedar that was perfectly sized and suited to make the new neck block. Cool.

with neck block

Holes will need to be drilled in to the block to accommodate the neck bolts before gluing the neck block on to the fingerboard/neck assembly with Hysol 9462. Some clean up and flat black paint, and we'll be all set. The fingerboard extension is in good order, and definitely usable! Yes!



Edited by arumako 2016-06-03 11:59 PM
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2016-06-04 2:00 AM (#525729 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Cool! Pretty chunk of wood for the neck block.
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-06-04 6:00 PM (#525736 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: RE: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Another great BFLG episode. Keep em coming.
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arumako
Posted 2016-06-22 11:06 AM (#526212 - in reply to #525736)
Subject: RE: CC54i iDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Hey BFLG! Thanks for the kind encouragement!
Moving forward with the neck block and tenon joint repair in tiny bits and pieces... Went to the local hardware store and found some nice 4M allen wrench bolts and steel inserts for the neck block! Cool!

To prevent any risk of "tear-out" of the steel inserts (happens when I get over zealous with the tightening of the bolts), these inserts will be installed in the side of the neck block that gets glued to the fingerboard extension. The truss rod cavity is prepainted as it will be difficult to paint once the block is glued in place...

bolt in block

As OMA mentioned, the Japanese cedar is beautiful, but relatively hard. I was really surprised that the holes drilled through so cleanly with minimal tear-out! Of course, the next step was to whip out the Hysol 94... no, no, wait-a-minute, wait-a-minute, gotta practice with some dry runs... Yup, when pressed for time it's easy to start rushing... that's when I gotta walk away to make sure I don't make any silly mistakes! So a couple days later, I did some dry runs, and whipped out the Hysol 9462 and clamped the neck block into place!

clamped

You can tell from this close-up that the tenon joint needs to be rebuilt to accommodate the 6M insert. After 24 hours, the adhesive flashing was cleaned, and the tenon joint rebuilt. After 48 hours, I did some final shaping of the neck block to fit the bowl, and cleaned up the heel of the neck. With some chiseling, carving and sanding, the neck assembly was in pretty good shape. Still need a bit more work for a perfect fit with the bowl, but all-in-all, things are looking good!

Assembly is good

I'll insert the 6M neck bolt steel-insert and paint her flat black and she should be all set! With this configuration, there will be no need for adhesives when assembling the neck to the body; if a neck reset is ever necessary in the future, it will be super easy! YES!

Next step, is to seal the finish on the spruce top with sanding sealer, and onto adding thickness to the headstock to prepare the neck for major "slot-head" surgery! Go slow, Ken! Go slow!



Edited by arumako 2016-06-22 11:35 AM
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2016-06-22 3:25 PM (#526227 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Very Educational.
I am looking forward to seeing the Headstock conversion to a Slothead.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-23 8:26 AM (#526242 - in reply to #526227)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Wow! Very clean work on the neck, Ken.
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arumako
Posted 2016-06-24 11:28 AM (#526276 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: RE: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Thanks OMA and Dan! Just one final pic of the completed neck block. The flat black paint is strictly cosmetic, but it gives everything a uniform look, and tidies things up nicely.
completed neck block

Everything lined up just perfectly. During disassemby, I kept asking myself, "To slothead or not to slothead!" As I stripped the platinum finish off of the neck, I decided that if the headstock and neck were one-piece, then I would not "slothead"; but, if the neck was two or more pieces, I would "slothead". As you can see in the picture above, the headstock and neck are two-pieces...so, slothead it is!

Need to find the right strategy and process to construct the slothead. The headstock will need to be thickened and the plan is to keep the off-set tuning peg alignment, but I'm just not sure if there is going to be enough wood between the right and left slots! Hmmm, need lots of measurements and brain storming! Well...nothing stormin' up in the brain right now, so it's time to hit the sack! Good night BFLG!



Edited by arumako 2016-06-24 11:37 AM
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tpa
Posted 2016-06-24 11:48 AM (#526277 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 552

Location: Denmark
Before you tighten the screws fully test that the fit is perfect. Your bolts work in different planes so beware you don't break any joints or have the fretboard pointing in a non desired direction.

Edited by tpa 2016-06-24 11:50 AM
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arumako
Posted 2016-06-24 10:23 PM (#526292 - in reply to #526277)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan

tpa - 2016-06-24 1:48 AM

Before you tighten the screws fully test that the fit is perfect. Your bolts work in different planes so beware you don't break any joints or have the fretboard pointing in a non desired direction.

Thanks for the heads up tpa! The alignment of the neck will need to be perfect; although my neck block assembly looks pretty clean, the cuts are not as precise as they should be and there is a little bit of play (about 2mm) that wreaks havoc when drilling holes in the bowl side neck block...

In Japan everybody uses these things called "clear files". They kinda keep things clean and orderly. The one pictured here is pink...

clear file

They come in all sorts of colors and designs; they also come completely transparent. So I cut one of these up to make a fitting jig for the neck block...

jig making

After proper alignment, the fitting jig is placed in the bowl's neck receptacle which is also marked with alignment markers...

bowl receptacle

Drilling the marked areas with a slightly larger (1mm) diameter drill-bit should allow for some margin for error, but this analog method isn't exactly the most reliable! A lot of measuring and re-measuring; aligning and re-aligning...this method served me well with the CC247 Project, but who know how it will go with the iDea? I guess this is the excitment that keeps me BFLG-ing..."please don't mess-up, Ken; please!"



Edited by arumako 2016-06-24 10:36 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-27 7:18 PM (#526354 - in reply to #526292)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Ken,

That's a good way to make a drilling template. Yes, I agree. I would make the holes in the top/neck block slightly oversize to allow some side-to-side play in the bolts. Once these get tightened, they will hold the neck securely.

Dan
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arumako
Posted 2016-07-09 12:47 AM (#526555 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: RE: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Whew! It's been awhile...haven't been able to break away from the daily grind. Of course, "Slot heading" the current neck is a bit intimidating, and a lot of brain storming is still needed for that - after all, slot heading is really a cosmetic issue. On the otherhand, neck alignment is ultimately far more critical; and so, I decided to tackle the neck/body alignment assembly first.

Oh...and "Thanks" for all of your encouragment. I really appreciate Dan's verification of the alignment method...kinda makes it easier to dive-in; so...summer's here it's hot and humid outdoors...time to take the "neck alignment plunge" After applying 3 coats of sanding sealer...

There was a need to improve the neck reception joint in the body of this guitar (my plan is to make the fret board a "floating" fret board). The original reception joint was an enclosure (shown bottom right), but this design did not allow for efficient support under the fretboard extension. I opened up the enclosure and cut the reception joint to accomodate the new shape of the neck block. It was pretty difficult as I needed to work from inside the bowl, but in the end, I was able to cut a fairly large piece of the reception block (top left) and file/sand down the area lightly. Notice the stained "Ovation" label in the back ground - spilled some iron acetate during the ebonizing process - oops!

neck reception

In order to ensure accurate neck alignment, the drilling jig needed to be setuip perfectly. No laser alignment tools in my toolbox, and so, "old school" was the only way to go. Took a series of measurements, laid down some masking tape on the guitar and my all purpose japanese folding mini-work table, set the Dremel, set the guitar in position, strapped and weighed everything down to ensure clean straight drilling...

drill setup

After drilling a 1/8th in. guide hole, a 6.5mm Augers bit was used to cut the bolt hole. Fortunately, the cut was straight with minimal tear-out! Whew...

One of the frustrations inherant in the original design of the iDea was the truss-rod access. Althought the truss-rod was accessible, the design did not allow for much leverage when tightening or loosening with an allen wrench (upper left). The opened up neck reception block allows for much better access (a full quarter turn and plenty of leverage) with a regular 3/16th allen wrench. You can see the 6M bolt and the tear-out from the Auger's bit (shoulda listened to Dan more carefully and bought the Forsner bit!

neck reception inner

Fortunately, everything came together pretty well...still need to get the right washers for the 6M bolt assembly. Also wasn't able to drill the vertical holes for the three 4M bolts, but that should be pretty easy with the right jig. I was even able to get the floating fret board right...ummm, I think it's right...it's floating isn't it?

floating fret board

The fit of the heel joint was surprisingly clean, and the alignment was just right. Like Dan said, even with a little bit of play, once the bolt is tightened the neck is absolutely set! Cool!

The sanding sealer needs to be cleaned up, but the overall finish for this guitar will be a cinch with my air brush. Now...to slothead or....wait-a-minute, maybe I should fabricate the CFR Bridge, or maybe I should install the CFR/balsa braces...Oh my! What's a guy to do? Well, this guy's gotta get back to some real work!

Man...I hope I don't botch this up! I love the OFC/BFLG! YES!



Edited by arumako 2016-07-09 1:03 AM
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-07-09 5:27 PM (#526575 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: RE: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Looking good Ken. Keep 'em coming.
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arumako
Posted 2016-07-11 10:59 PM (#526608 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: RE: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Thanks BanjoJ! No big changes at this point, but was able to drill the holes for the bolts that secure the neck block, and add the right washers. Everything lined up really well.

No Adhesives Necessary

Shims can be used to change neck/heel geometry! No need for adhesives to keep this neck secure! Cool! Woohoo... 

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arumako
Posted 2016-10-21 10:39 PM (#529455 - in reply to #526608)
Subject: RE: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Well...too busy to make any progress on any of my projects right now; but who can read Dan's 1111 and 1717 Rebuild threads without getting inspired! The subject of inquiry for me is "Bracing"! A combination of Dan's threads, the recent discovery of my 1117-4's interesting bracing pattern, Damon's Balladeer 1117-4 "VT-9" bracing and a few minutes to Photoshop, I thought I'd re-think my CC54i bracing pattern completely.

Still planning on fabricating the bridge and bracings from ultra stiff carbon fiber (CFRP) which should encourage less material and slightly lighter weight in the overall build; but the bracing pattern has really been a question mark. By standard bracing conventions, the 3 oval sound holes are placed in an inconvenient position. Personally, I like the design (to the chagrin of some of my O loving friends over here), but functionality is a whole different issue. From a totally amateur-ish perspective (be merciful please), I wonder how this would sound?

Bracing re-thought

Acoustically, I love the bass frequencies to be relatively strong, the mids to be punchy, and the treble to be a bit toned down. Each brace will be a 2mm CFRP strip sandwiched in 1mm balsa wood strips for a svelt 4mm footprint. Since CFRP is super stiff the height of each brace will be about a third of a typical brace (maybe 2~2.5mm). The bridge will also be low-profile (except at the bridge saddle). The hypothesis is that the light and stiff bracing will allow more of the natural resonance of the solid spruce to sing...well, theoretically anyway...

Just some luthier "wannabe"/hack-in-reality musings...



Edited by arumako 2016-10-21 10:43 PM
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tpa
Posted 2016-10-22 5:45 PM (#529464 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 552

Location: Denmark
All other even: if You reduce the height of the brace to 1/3 the stiffness will be reduced to 1/27 but the elasticity ratio of wood vs. CFRP has to be considered - which you propably have done.
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-24 5:26 AM (#529477 - in reply to #529464)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 751

Location: Muenster/Germany
Doesn´t a slothead construction need a thicker headstock? I´m sure you would have to use an additional veneer for it. And besides a little more pressure on the nut (in my eyes) there are no further advantages. And change strings on a slothead guitar always is fumble, I hate it. This guitar looks beautiful, I would leave it like it is and choose Schaller Grand Tune machines in gold with wooden knobs. Maybe a Macassar Ebony veneer on the back of the headstock...
The bracing looks very interesting! What do the luthiers say, will the high E and B string not be "thwarted" too much?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-25 10:28 AM (#529489 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Hi Ken,

I meant to comment earlier, but this is really nice work you've done here to convert this guitar to a bolt-on neck. Technically, I don't think it's a floating fret board extension because it still attaches to the top. Still, this is really nice work.

WRT the braces, you're in uncharted territory. I've only ever replicated the Ovation braces out of spruce, or in the case of my 1619, replicated the forward X-braces shown on the Stewmac site, so I had a pretty good idea of how it was going to sound in the end. The only way to tell how this brace pattern is going to sound is to build it.

I'm with Michel. I really like how the top looks. It has a vintage look that's popular now.

Dan

Edited by DanSavage 2016-10-25 10:29 AM
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tpa
Posted 2016-10-25 1:53 PM (#529494 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: Re: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 552

Location: Denmark
A floating fretboard (extension) might not add anything. The fretboard extension on your guitar is well supported by the extended heel block of the neck. And as such not floating. Because of this the fretboard can be left unattached to the top which might add some vibrant flexibility to the top. So if anything is floating here it must be the top ... or not?

Edited by tpa 2016-10-25 1:55 PM
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arumako
Posted 2016-10-26 11:10 AM (#529512 - in reply to #525728)
Subject: RE: CC54i IDea Repair/Upgrade/Re-Assembly



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Thanks for all the insight folks!

@tpa - Yup, did the calculations. CFRP's Y's Modulus is 150 GPa, while Sitka Spruce measures at 11.3 GPa. That's over 13X! With braces about 1/3 the height I should be able to compensate by making my (CFRP) braces about half the width. I probably shouldn't have used the term "floating fret board", but you're right the edges of the fret board aren't touching the sound board (about 0.5mm gap). I'm trying to free up the sound board movement in that area to allow for maximum resonance - as you say, it's more like a "floating sound board". That means the long cross brace will be totally counter productive, won't it? Doin' away with that, for sure!

@DetlefMichel - Yes, a conversion to a slot head would require that I thicken the head stock by about 5mm. It would strictly be a cosmetic change, and looking at all the work that is going into Dan's 1111-4's head stock, I'm beginning to question the wisdom for making such a major change for no real functional value! My bridge is going to be fabricated from a nice piece of CFRP, so I'm planning on putting a matching CFRP plate on the face of the head stock. I really like the idea of the Schaller Grand Tune machines with ebony knobs. That would look really cool.

@Dan - Uncharted territory means I'd better think a lot and go real slow. The bracing pattern (less the long cross brace) will be fun and worth a try...maybe shoot for a Christmas finish. Since it needs a fret job, EVO Gold (inspiration from your '85 1717 Legend thread - thanks for the tutorial FlySig!) might be the way to go. I'll still need to wait for my first attempt at using any kind of torrefied material!

Just thinking about this stuff is exciting! Can't wait to get to it! Thanks again everybody! Will keep you all posted!
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