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1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-13 9:58 PM (#522916 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

So, back to the build.

The glue was cured enough to pull the clamps off and drill the hole for the pickup wire.



Rosette was glued into place with 5-minute hardware store epoxy.



Tuners are mounted, truss rod nut was put back into place. If you look closely you can see a bronze washer under the truss rod nut. The nut was pretty much bottomed out on the threads, so I was left with two choices --cut more threads or find a washer that would push the nut back up the threads.

I looked through my model airplane parts and found a bronze wheel bushing that was thick enough to give the nut some more bite in the threads, but had a large enough ID to fit over the truss rod, but with a small enough OD to fit inside the truss rod pocket. (Thank to Associated R/C!)



While I'm waiting for the Hysold to fully cure the next job is to start making the bone nut. Since this nut is bleached it's pretty bright white. After I finish it and polish it, I'll probably dip it into some Rit dye to give it a vintage look to match the color of the binding.



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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-14 9:40 PM (#522935 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Well, I couldn't help myself.

I cut the slots in the nut, strung it up (D'Addario PB, 10-47) to set the action.

All I can say is, Wow! I love this torrefied wood. I played a couple of songs for SWMBO and her comments was that it was really LOUD, clear but not twangy. (a good thing)

Here's what it looks like.



I need to fix the high-e nut slot --I cut the slot a little too deep and it's buzzing slightly on the first fret. I also need to round the nut, polish it and glue it down permanently, but the sound of the guitar is everything I wanted it to be.

Tons of sustain, just like Jay's 485 and fantastic tone. In fact, I had to put the OP-Pro in because there was so much sound coming out of the hole. I may just keep the PBs on there for the time being.

I'll take some proper beauty shots tomorrow and post them. I just wanted to share the latest.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-14 9:42 PM
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Cavalier
Posted 2016-03-14 10:50 PM (#522938 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
March 2013
Posts: 359

Location: undisclosed
A marvel of unsurpassed splendor.. Good show !!
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2016-03-14 11:26 PM (#522940 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Oooo! Nice!
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-03-15 12:09 AM (#522941 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Very impressive Dan. Thank you very much for sharing this storey with us.

Well done!
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leonardmccoy
Posted 2016-03-15 1:22 AM (#522942 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 287

Location: Katmandu
What a marvelous piece of passion and handcraftsmanship! Waiting for those beauty shots...
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Damon67
Posted 2016-03-15 1:45 AM (#522944 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6992

Location: Jet City
well done!
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marenostrum
Posted 2016-03-15 1:01 PM (#522950 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
August 2007
Posts: 1008

Location: Tuscany, Italy
Gorgeous guitar Dan. Congratulation for your skill & your new guitar
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-15 8:15 PM (#522965 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Thanks everyone for you kind words. It's been a real pleasure sharing this project with you. Not as pleasurable as playing this guitar now that it's done, but close.

As promised, it's done. Not 100% done, but done enough until I change out the strings.

And, the project has not been without its flaws, such as the binding separation at the waist on the bass bout side.

But, all in all, I'm very happy with it. I did have a chance to play its cousin, the 1619 to compare the sound of the two. They both are of the same generation bowls, necks, etc., and have the same brace pattern on the top. In short, there's no comparison. This guitar sounds better, hands-down.

With no further a-do.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-15 8:17 PM
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arumako
Posted 2016-03-15 10:53 PM (#522967 - in reply to #522914)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
My goodness, things have progressed rapidly! Thanks for always responding so graciously and thoroughly to my inquiries, Dan. I really appreciate it. What a great comparison/experiment!

DanSavage - 2016-03-13 11:48 AM

Thanks, Ken.

I've been coloring epoxy for years. Pigment is sold in gel form, but there's no guarantee that the gel will be compatible with epoxy. So, I started using dry pigment so I didn't have to worry. Plus, dry artist pigment can be mixed to get whatever color you need.

I did consider using HHG for this bridge, but the point of this guitar was to build it as closely to my 1619 as possible to limit the variables so I could more directly compare the differences between a torrefied top and a non-torrefied top. Both guitars are about the same vintage, with the same method of bowl construction. I built both tops using the same brace pattern and the same types of glue for gluing down the braces.

The bridge on my 1619 was originally glued down with HHG, but I did a poor job of prepping the top and it popped off after about a month. So, I reglued it with Hysol as I knew that wouldn't result in a failed glue joint. (it hasn't)

So, to eliminate the bridge glue as a variable, I used the same glue on this 1617 as the 1619. Even so, the bridge on the 1619 was walnut and this one is ebony, but I figured the differences between the two would be minimal.

That's also why I decided to pop for the cost of electronics, including the piezo bridge saddle. If I had gone with my original plan of using a bone saddle, I would not be able to be sure that the difference in sound was due to the torrefied top or the bone saddle.

I'm really glad I spent the dough to buy my Alps printer. It's one of the few ever produced that's able to print opaque colors, like gold foil. Although I used a different method to print the decals on Jay's guitar, the Ovation logo on the later guitars used gold foil outlined in black, and it would have been impossible to print that later logo using the method I used on Jay's O.

So now with all this attention to detail you've got the perfect comparison! That means you have two vintage 70's Os with modern OP Pro pre-amps! Your work never ceases to amaze me!

Any plans for a video shoot-out between the two?
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jay
Posted 2016-03-16 9:03 AM (#522973 - in reply to #522967)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1249

Location: Texas

 

Dan...another sweet looking O. Congrats.

Soooo...are you deducting bracing and top or just the torrified top as being the main culprit in the improvement of acoustic response?

Additionally, I would be interested, since there is acoustical separation...if there is any noticeable difference between the two, plugged in, with the same settings.

 



Edited by jay 2016-03-16 9:06 AM
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2016-03-16 11:30 AM (#522974 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750

Location: Boise, Idaho
Now that is a restoration or maybe even a resurrection! You made an old guitar come to life just in time for Easter.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-16 11:44 AM (#522975 - in reply to #522967)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
arumako - 2016-03-15 8:53 PM

My goodness, things have progressed rapidly! Thanks for always responding so graciously and thoroughly to my inquiries, Dan. I really appreciate it. What a great comparison/experiment!

So now with all this attention to detail you've got the perfect comparison! That means you have two vintage 70's Os with modern OP Pro pre-amps! Your work never ceases to amaze me!

Any plans for a video shoot-out between the two?


Thanks, Ken.

Not immediately. Right now the 1619 has 80/20s and the 1617 has PBs. Once I change the strings I may do a side-by-side comparison video.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-16 11:49 AM (#522976 - in reply to #522973)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
jay - 2016-03-16 7:03 AM

 

Dan...another sweet looking O. Congrats.

Soooo...are you deducting bracing and top or just the torrified top as being the main culprit in the improvement of acoustic response?

Additionally, I would be interested, since there is acoustical separation...if there is any noticeable difference between the two, plugged in, with the same settings.

 



Thanks, Jay.

I built this guitar as identically as possible to the 1619 so that I could reduce the number of variables down to just the difference between normal wood and torrefied wood.

This means that the improvement in the sound can be isolated to the torrefied wood.

It would be interesting to see if they sound different when plugged in. I'll try that tonight and let you know.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-16 11:51 AM (#522977 - in reply to #522974)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Mark in Boise - 2016-03-16 9:30 AM

Now that is a restoration or maybe even a resurrection! You made an old guitar come to life just in time for Easter.


And not a moment too soon, either.

Now that this one is done and I've got my own torrefied Ovation I'm taking a break from working on guitars and I'm going to spend time playing them.
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leonardmccoy
Posted 2016-03-16 3:22 PM (#522980 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 287

Location: Katmandu
It's outright uncanncy to see a 1617 in a state as if she had just left the factory in New Hampshire -- or even better than that. What a marvelous piece of restoration work which I never thought possible as home-made!

Merely the nut could use a rounding off and eventually polishing towards the peghead as it seems a little square-shaped still, but that may just be the photos.

Edited by leonardmccoy 2016-03-16 3:23 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-16 5:19 PM (#522983 - in reply to #522980)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
leonardmccoy - 2016-03-16 1:22 PM

It's outright uncanncy to see a 1617 in a state as if she had just left the factory in New Hampshire -- or even better than that. What a marvelous piece of restoration work which I never thought possible as home-made!

Merely the nut could use a rounding off and eventually polishing towards the peghead as it seems a little square-shaped still, but that may just be the photos.


Thanks! It's a brand-new 40-year-old guitar. :D

Yep. You've got a good eye. I still need to round and polish the nut, but I'm going to wait to do that until I change the strings. It's perfectly playable in the mean time, so I'm in no big hurry.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-16 5:21 PM
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-03-16 7:44 PM (#522984 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
I have a question for you Dan.

I recently scored an Op-Pro preamp, can, pickup and cables off Aussie eBay, and I'm planning to install it in my 1982 Folklore 1614.

I was planning to make a template for the cut-out from one of my other O's. Is that what you did for your 1617?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-16 10:38 PM (#522987 - in reply to #522984)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
BanjoJ - 2016-03-16 5:44 PM

I have a question for you Dan.

I recently scored an Op-Pro preamp, can, pickup and cables off Aussie eBay, and I'm planning to install it in my 1982 Folklore 1614.

I was planning to make a template for the cut-out from one of my other O's. Is that what you did for your 1617?


Hi Paul,

Yep. I took the OP-Pro can out of my 2078, then traced the opening onto Bristol paper.

The trickiest part is knowing where to put the hole on the new guitar. What I did was to hold the can up to the front of the guitar, then looking front to back, move it back and forth until the curve of the can matched the curve of the waist.

Upon further reflection, it would be easy enough to put some masking tape on the side parallel to the top starting at the joint where the neck joins the body and mark the start of the hole, then transfer the tape to the guitar where you want the hole to go. I just eye-balled it, but using the tape would be more precise.

I put some masking tape on the waist, then traced the template onto the tape. I used my Dremel cut-off wheel to rough cut the opening, then used a sanding drum to grind the opening back to it's final shape.

Remember, you can always sand off more material to enlarge the hole, but it's more difficult to shrink the hole if you get it too large.

Dan
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-03-17 12:10 AM (#522988 - in reply to #522987)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Thanks Dan.

I'll create another thread so I don't hijack this one.

Edited by BanjoJ 2016-03-17 12:29 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-22 8:47 PM (#523060 - in reply to #522973)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

jay - 2016-03-16 7:03 AM

Additionally, I would be interested, since there is acoustical separation...if there is any noticeable difference between the two, plugged in, with the same settings.

 

I had a chance to compare the 1619 to the 1617 when plugged in.

Before I did the comparison I strung the 1619 with the same strings as the 1617 and to be honest, I can't tell any difference between the two.

This isn't surprising because the pickups only read the vibration of the strings, not the tops.

I did an acoustic-only blind-sound test between the two with my wife and she picked the 1617.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-22 8:48 PM
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jay
Posted 2016-03-22 11:44 PM (#523063 - in reply to #523060)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1249

Location: Texas

"This isn't surprising because the pickups only read the vibration of the strings, not the tops."

Thanks for doing that. I didnt expect any difference, so thanks for confirming that.

Well...when does the wood bowl project begin?

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-23 8:59 AM (#523070 - in reply to #523063)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
WRT the wood bowl project, I'm taking a break for a while. I've got a web app I'm building for the prison ministry at our church for those reentering society. After that, we'll see.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-23 9:00 AM
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arumako
Posted 2016-03-24 11:10 PM (#523117 - in reply to #523060)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
DanSavage - 2016-03-22 10:47 AM

I had a chance to compare the 1619 to the 1617 when plugged in.

Before I did the comparison I strung the 1619 with the same strings as the 1617 and to be honest, I can't tell any difference between the two.

This isn't surprising because the pickups only read the vibration of the strings, not the tops.

I did an acoustic-only blind-sound test between the two with my wife and she picked the 1617.


Despite knowing better, I always find myself wanting to believe that the pre-amps make a huge difference in capturing the unique sound of each acoustic guitar. I guess that's why the Cool Tube type pre-amp with piezos and mics are gaining in popularity. I guess mics are still the most accurate method to reproduce acoustic guitar voicing.

...redeeming model airplanes, guitars, and people...sounds like a busy time for you Dan. We'll be looking forward to your wood bowl project with great anticipation!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-03-26 6:55 PM (#523187 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

A good pickup and preamp makes all the difference in the electronic sound of the guitar.

Ovation's acoustic preamp and pick-up has long been recognized as some of the best in the business, which is why they're used so much in the studio.

A friend of mine is a professional musician in L.A. and does a lot of studio recording. Whenever he's got acoustic guitar work to do the engineers always ask him to bring his Legend. I talked to him about why this is and he explained that with most guitars the engineers have to mix out the strong bass response. But, the Ovation electronics are very balanced so it's easier to get good sound out of them than other guitars. Yes, if you want to capture the actual sound of the guitar, you have to mic it.

I'm goofing around in 3D CAD to get an idea of how to build the mold for bending of the wood staves. Here's the first crack at it. This bowl was made with a sphere. But, it's too thick at the upper and lower bouts.

This exercise tells me that the bowls on Ovations and the Alvarez DY92 are not truly spherical. The next exercise will involve making a bowl with a custom contour.





Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-26 6:57 PM
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