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1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...

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BanjoJ
Posted 2015-12-22 12:04 AM (#519656 - in reply to #519646)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Thanks Dan. That makes sense.

It got me a little curious about changing the radius on a fingerboard, and I see that plenty of people do that.

I'm now wondering if there would be enough wood to change a flat fingerboard to a 10" radius.
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DanSavage
Posted 2015-12-22 1:03 AM (#519659 - in reply to #519656)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

BanjoJ - 2015-12-21 10:04 PM
I'm now wondering if there would be enough wood to change a flat fingerboard to a 10" radius.


CAD to the rescue.

Assuming a radius of 10", a fretboard width of 2" and a thickness of 1/4", which is the nominal thickness of my fretboard at the center, I would say that there would be enough wood. See below.

The center is .25" and the edges are just under .2" (.1999")



Edited by DanSavage 2015-12-22 1:06 AM
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arumako
Posted 2015-12-22 1:19 AM (#519660 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Just awesome, Dan. You're making quick progress on this one! Interesting point about the pick-ups not being able to catch the torrefied quality of the sound board. If Ovation really is going to make a wood backed bowl, a "Cool Tube" style pre-amp is really going to be necessary in the future. The work you're doing on the neck is really educational too. Looking forward to your choice of finish on the sound board and the neck too.
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BanjoJ
Posted 2015-12-22 1:45 AM (#519661 - in reply to #519659)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
DanSavage - 2015-12-22 6:03 PM


CAD to the rescue.

Assuming a radius of 10", a fretboard width of 2" and a thickness of 1/4", which is the nominal thickness of my fretboard at the center, I would say that there would be enough wood. See below.

The center is .25" and the edges are just under .2" (.1999")


Cool!

With a lot of work removing and replacing the frets (probably too much work) I could make a nylon stringer more comfortable to play. I'm just not used to the flat fingerboard when playing barre chords. Alternatively, I could just practice more.
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DanSavage
Posted 2015-12-22 12:09 PM (#519679 - in reply to #519661)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
BanjoJ - 2015-12-21 11:45 PM
With a lot of work removing and replacing the frets (probably too much work) I could make a nylon stringer more comfortable to play. I'm just not used to the flat fingerboard when playing barre chords. Alternatively, I could just practice more.


That, or if you want to play nylon stringed Ovation with a curved fretboard, you could get a Country Artist.
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DanSavage
Posted 2015-12-29 10:09 AM (#519852 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

So, I sanded the finish off the neck and headstock.

The original plan was to sand level the finish on the front of the headstock to preserve the original decal. But, the pre-existing gouge in the crook of the headstock up near the bottom of the guitar in the logo, along with a couple of new gouges I made with the Dremel when I was taking the finish off the sides of the headstock, had my pondering making a new decal.

This logo artwork is slightly different from what I did for Jay's guitar. This artwork has a black outline around the gold. The original logos were just the gold.

I have an Alps MD-5000 dry transfer printer that has the ability to print gold and silver foil, as well as metallics. Here's sample of the final artwork, printed on water-transfer decal paper, ready for the transfer process.

There were some bumps along the road. At first, I used the decal paper that came with the PulsarPro dry transfer system. The Alps foils didn't really stick too well to that paper. The artwork above was printed on Alps-specific decal paper. The gold border is necessary for the PulsarPro transfer system.

When I got this artwork below, I decided it was time to move onto the next step.

The decal paper with the artwork is covered with thin mylar and is run through a laminating machine to form a light bond between the artwork and mylar so the mylar acts like a carrier sheet. Afterward, the decal paper/mylar carrier is soaked in warm water until the decal releases. So far, so good. Onto the next step.

Whoops! Unfortunately, the heat and pressure from the laminator causes the artwork and mylar to form too strong of a bond for a reliable release. So, it's back to the drawing board.

Not really. Just onto another system of decal preparation. About this time, I ran out of gold foil. So, I decided to use silver foil as a substitute. This time, I'm going old-school water transfer decals. First, the artwork is printed onto the decal paper, then sprayed with a thin coat of Krylon Krystal Klear acryllic paint. The clear paint seals the artwork in and acts as a carrier sheet when the decal paper coating is dissolved in water.

I'm also testing a solid-color mono-chromatic logo. This was a failure. This was the artwork I was printing when I ran out of gold foil.

An outline logo.

All three are cut out with a pair of scissors, very close to the artwork to minimize the amount of carrier sheet showing through.

And, here's the silver logo stuck to a scrap of spruce that came from the 1617 top. I used this wood because it provides a smooth surface as a base and so I'd be able to see the wood grain showing through the artwork.

Here's the solid color logo. Unfortunately, the coat of Krylon was too thin on the outline logo and it fell apart when it released from the backing paper.

And, here's the silver logo next to the headstock logo. One change that will have to be made is to close in the "O" in the guitar. I thought is was hollow, but it's actually solid black. The rest looks pretty good.

Next, I'll spray some Minwax clear polyurethane over the decals to make sure the carrier sheet disappears.

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Nancy
Posted 2015-12-30 9:32 AM (#519871 - in reply to #519608)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713

Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota
DanSavage - 2015-12-21 11:46 AM

Thanks!

Nope. Sanded right over them, starting with 80-grit and ending with 800-grit. This is how inlays are done. They usually stand slightly proud of the surrounding wood when they're first inlaid and are sanded flush.

When I first started sanding with the 80-grit, the inlays dulled down, naturally. But, as I got to the higher grits their luster and depth came back so they're looking real purty again.


As Always Dan, Thank You!!!! I love your Journals into rebuilding these Beauties!

And Thank You for telling us about the inlays, I know the Center Hole Inlay I bought is not very shiny, and I was wondering if that was all the better it would ever look, but now I know better, and am very excited!!

I can't wait until you do a full wood-round back, that is going to be Fascinating to watch each step too! I Love these projects!!
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tpa
Posted 2015-12-30 6:11 PM (#519896 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 556

Location: Denmark
The silver logo also looks cool. The prints You make even seems standing out sharper than the classic decal.

Edited by tpa 2015-12-30 6:19 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-01 1:01 PM (#519942 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Happy New Year!

I sprayed the decals with the clear polyurethane and they will work fine. Based upon this, I moved ahead with removing the finish from the front of the head stock, including the decal. So, I'm pretty much committed.

Here's a time-lapse video of me taking the polyester finish off with a Dremel finishing/sanding buff. Actual time in the video sequence shown was about 20 minutes.



Here's the head stock after scraping and sanding.

And, I wet the head stock with naptha so I could see what it will it look like under the new clear finish. The walnut is a nice contrast.

Next job is to glue the binding to the sides of the fret board.

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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-01-02 12:51 AM (#519953 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 809

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Looking good Dan. Keep 'em coming!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-02 5:27 PM (#519967 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Thanks for the kind words, everyone.

I'm using .040" cream binding from AllParts.com for the the neck binding. I used my binding shaving holder to reduce the width of the neck binding strips from 1/2" to just over 1/4".

First, the center part of the binding is cut to size, then beveled to match the sides of the fingerboard. Glue is applied to the wood, then the part is squeezed and taped into place.

Strips of binding tape are pre-applied to the bottom of the fretboard to help keep the side bindings in alignment while they'r being glued.

Working in about 9" segments the binding is glued and taped into place with binding tape.

Now, the binding for the other side is glued and taped into place.

I'll let the glue dry 24 hours, then peel off the tape tomorrow afternoon to see how it looks and, hopefully, start scraping the binding down to the shape of the neck.

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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2016-01-02 5:35 PM (#519968 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Such patient work.
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tpa
Posted 2016-01-03 4:39 AM (#519972 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 556

Location: Denmark
That box has earned its value a few times :-) While my wife is watching the Downton Abbey series on TV I totally prefer to follow your works. And I often wonder what the production time for a mass produced guitar actually is. CNC machining has probably cut the actual machining time and reduced the reject ratio to almost nil. But gluing and finish still take some time, I should think. Even with more sophisticated fixtures and tooling.
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jay
Posted 2016-01-03 10:18 AM (#519973 - in reply to #519972)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1249

Location: Texas

TPA..I often wondered that, especially when everything was hand made. How many man hours went into making a shiny bowl Balladeer...I am assuming that the bowl was actually a cost saving measure over wood boxes, both in time and money, then as well as today.

 



Edited by jay 2016-01-03 10:19 AM
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seesquare
Posted 2016-01-03 10:57 AM (#519975 - in reply to #519973)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3602

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
"the bowl was actually a cost saving measure over wood boxes, both in time and money, then as well as today."
And, it still works better. Pure genius.......
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-03 9:14 PM (#519986 - in reply to #519972)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
tpa - 2016-01-03 2:39 AM

That box has earned its value a few times :-) While my wife is watching the Downton Abbey series on TV I totally prefer to follow your works. And I often wonder what the production time for a mass produced guitar actually is. CNC machining has probably cut the actual machining time and reduced the reject ratio to almost nil. But gluing and finish still take some time, I should think. Even with more sophisticated fixtures and tooling.


Thanks.

If I were 'mass-producing' a guitar, I could see building in batches of 5-6 guitars and perform each step to all the guitars in the batch before proceeding to the next step. It would add a little to the overall build time, but not nearly as much as building each guitar sequentially.
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arumako
Posted 2016-01-03 11:59 PM (#519988 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Your projects are always so full of ingenuity, Dan! That Banker's Box has got to be one of the most versatile tools in your guitar repair arsenal. Just incredible detail (especially on the decal) and documentation!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-04 2:18 PM (#519993 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Ken.

Yes, the Banker's Box does make a good work stand for Ovation guitars.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-04 2:40 PM (#519994 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

So, the work continues.

The binding glue has dried. I used diagonal cutters (wire cutters) to snip off the excess side neck binding and started removing the tape.

I used a razor saw to cut the binding flush with the end of the fingerboard.

And, removed the rest of the binding tape. There were a few areas where the tape had too good of a grip on the ebony fingerboard and pulled some chips out. These were glued with thin CA.



Lots O' glue-globs along the glue joint.

Binding has been scraped down so it's flush with the top of the fingerboard.

A little boo-boo happened when I got a little too exuberant with the scraping and pulled some of the binding away from the lower corner. This was re-glued and taped.

Next job is to drill the holes for the fret side marker dots. All hole locations were measured, then I used the point of a brad point bit to pre-drill the locations so the high-speed bit doesn't wander. The hole at the 3rd fret has been drilled and the 5th fret is next.

All the holes have been drilled. Ovation usually carries the fret side marker dots all the way to the sound hole, but I decided to stop at the 12th fret, mainly because the body gets in the way of playing the higher frets, and more importantly to me, anything above the 12th fret is no man's land.

I tried to buy some fret marker material from the local Guitar Center, but the luthier behind the repair bench told me it was a special-order item. So, I went down to my local Hobby Sheeple, er, People and bought some 1/16" carbon fiber rod. It's harder to work with than the regular side fret marker material, (styrene or ABS) but it's still workable.

Here I've cut some lengths of CF rod.

I sanded one end of each to give the glue some bite to hold the rods in place.



I applied a little daub of glue to the end of the rod, then stuffed it into the hole.



After the glue is dry, I'll cut the rods close with the binding with a razor saw, then sand them flush.

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Mark in Boise
Posted 2016-01-04 4:49 PM (#519995 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750

Location: Boise, Idaho
Pretty amazing, Dan. I don't even know what a razor saw is. I was happy to finally replace the nut on my UKII with a brass one, as it was originally built, this weekend while watching bowl games. I didn't screw anything up as far as I can tell, so that's a success in my book.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-05 9:57 AM (#520006 - in reply to #519995)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Mark in Boise - 2016-01-04 2:49 PM

Pretty amazing, Dan. I don't even know what a razor saw is. I was happy to finally replace the nut on my UKII with a brass one, as it was originally built, this weekend while watching bowl games. I didn't screw anything up as far as I can tell, so that's a success in my book.


Yup. That's how I measure success, too. Or, at least I screwed it up as little as possible.

Here's a pic of a razor saw. This particular one is manufactured by Zona, but there are other manufacturers such as Xacto, etc. The blade is only .010" thick and has 100 or so teeth per inch. As a point of reference, the fret slots are .020", or twice as thick as this blade. This one is a back saw, but they also sell different shape blades.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-01-05 9:59 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-05 11:07 AM (#520008 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: RE: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I used the razor saw to cut off the excess side markers, then shaped down the bindings.

Here's the bridge end of the fingerboard.

Looking down the side of the neck.

For the most part, the neck is done. It still needs frets, but I'll add those after I finish the work on the top.

Next job is to start prepping the top for gluing to the body. Since I've covered this in detail on other threads I'll only post when I reach the major steps

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standing
Posted 2016-01-05 1:47 PM (#520012 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
December 2008
Posts: 1453

Location: Texas
Dan,

Your repair/rebuild skills and ingenuity are indisputably impressive, but, I'm also very impressed by the quality of your photos and your thorough documentation. I envy the discipline it must take to stop working at each step and take photos. (I, for one, don't multi-task well enough to do that.)

Thanks for putting in the extra effort of documenting each step, it's very informative, and provides invaluable resource/reference material for the rest of us.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-01-06 5:25 PM (#520035 - in reply to #518943)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks for the kind words, standing.

I'm glad you're enjoying the (re)build.
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-01-08 5:47 AM (#520057 - in reply to #520035)
Subject: Re: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 751

Location: Muenster/Germany
Your "re"-builds appear to me to be "improved"-builds.....
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