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Location: Yokohama, Japan | Hope everybody at the OFC had a great summer. After returning from the States with my friends Nakao Elite NNS778-9, things got terribly hectic. I never had a chance to take the video to sample the sound of the incredibly restored instrument; and now, my friend is so enamored with his pratically brand new Mini-Mother restored Elite, he just can't get enough of her! I was just feeling a bit withdrawn, when I walked by a Celebrity CC247 in a used instrument store the other day. The CC247 was listed in "excellent" condition and priced at about 300 bucks (JPY)...not a bad price, but I had no intention of buying her, of course... I had to try her out anyway, and took her for a spin. The pre-amp wasn't working, and the neck was in need of a reset. Just as I was about to put her away, the store manager walks by; and so, I mentioned the "not so excellent" condition to him, and he says, "You can have her for a 180 bucks." Thinking he was joking, I laughed and said, "I'll give you 150" to which he replied, "It's yours!" 
This is in the "GS" (Green Stain) color scheme...regardless of color preference, the guitar's finish is in great condition with just one small ding on the face of the soundboard. Here, she is prepped for neck removal. 
What I really like about this 1995 model Celebrity is the "Brown" back. Very cool! Once I got her home and opened her up, I just reset the bridge saddle and voila - the OP24+ came to life! Awesome! 
She's got the quintad bracing with the additional reinforcement brace underneath the bridge typical of Celebrity models. 
Unlike the U.S. models which feature bolt on necks, this one is glued on and the joint looks kinda interesting. So I taped her up and she's ready for the neck removal... 
I really took my time on this one. It took about 2 hours of slowly working on the adhesive holding the neck into place. I'm not sure what kind of adhesive was used, but it didn't take long for me to realize that this guitar was victim of a failed neck reset...look at the amount of glue on that neck joint! 
Thankfully, the bowl's dovetail joint is in good shape and just needs cleaning...the neck will need a thorough going over... 
After preliminary clean-up, I had a nice mound of glue debris...kinda yellowish and a bit flexible...some kind of epoxy for sure... 
The failed reset attempt left huge gaps in the dovetail joint which were just filled with epoxy. These gaps will need to be filled with shims. Getting her back together again should be relatively easy. My 1868 Elite and my iDea Projects are still on the shelf as they will require a lot more time, but I now have the Hysol 9462 and G10 that DanSavage recommended, so I'm thinking this will be a good practice project to get a feel for the powerful adhesive. For now, all I need to do is sand down the neck dove tail joint, glue and clamp the shims in place and reset the neck onto the body and this CC247 should be as good as new! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Wow! I wish I had known all that back in 2007 when I bought a defective CS257.
I look forward to seeing the finished results.
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Location: Cologne/Germany | Very interesting! Never could do that, no talent.... Keep us informed about the progress, please! |
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Location: Denmark | Hi Arumako. Nice new project. The more You sand the more important it will be to recheck the neck position in order to reassure good intonation. Will You convert it to a bolt-on type of joint?
Edited by tpa 2015-09-26 8:00 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | I'm with tpa. I would convert this to a bolt-on neck.
I am curious what technique you used to get the neck free from the body. Did you apply heat or was it strictly a mechanical action? |
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Location: Denmark | I dont know if the guitars from "Ovation’s Pacific-based subsidiary" are with the Kaman bar
Source: Fig. 7 from Patent US4200023.
If so it may already have the threads |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | tpa - 2015-09-26 10:48 AM
I dont know if the guitars from "Ovation’s Pacific-based subsidiary" are with the Kaman bar
Source: Fig. 7 from Patent US4200023.
If so it may already have the threads
Quick answer... NO!
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Location: Denmark | Then a couple of threaded steel inserts for M6 screws would be one way to go. Neck resets can bring many nice Celebrities back to a usable state. |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | tpa - 2015-09-25 9:59 PM
Hi Arumako. Nice new project. The more You sand the more important it will be to recheck the neck position in order to reassure good intonation. Will You convert it to a bolt-on type of joint?
Thanks for the comments and suggestions tpa & DanSavage! Yes, I'm definitely planning to change this to a bolt-on configuration. After stripping the epoxy from the dovetail joint, it is pretty evident that a lot of wood was removed from the neck joint. Thankfully, the heel is still to spec, and doesn't need a lot of work. The joint will need some rebuilding even if I go with the bolt-on configuration to make sure the neck aligns properly. Intonation is definitely going to be a big concern...
I'm debating if it would just be easier to fill the dovetail joint in the bowl with a fitted piece of wood and convert to a mortise and tenon neck joint. Making the mortise joint would be relatively easy; but, I don't want to remove the fingerboard from the neck to form a precise tenon joint (my hand carving skills with a chisel are a bit questionable!). Combine this with the bolt-on configuration, and I wouldn't even need to use adhesives in the neck joint and can assemble the guitar more like a USA Elite. That way, any future neck resets would be super easy. I think this will make the neck/body joint more stable.
...of course, I'm kinda thinking I'll sell her when I'm done with this project (to build my fund to buy a new USA Ovation). So, I'm not sure if going through all the trouble will be efficient in the final analysis... hmmm, decisions, decisions...
Edited by arumako 2015-09-26 8:06 PM
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2015-09-25 10:55 PM
I'm with tpa. I would convert this to a bolt-on neck.
I am curious what technique you used to get the neck free from the body. Did you apply heat or was it strictly a mechanical action?
Thanks for the comment DanSavage. Yes, I applied heat...I used the hot iron and steel spatula routine to free the fingerboard from the sound board. I thought I might need to resort to steam, but I tried the Ziploc Freezer/Storage Bag method first...
Ziploc Freezer/Storage Bags are made from polpropylene and have an approximate melting temperature of 250 to 260 degrees Fahrenheit. Since water boils at 212 degrees F, and I read somewhere that hide glue liquifies at 145 degrees F (I don't think Celebrities use hide glue, but I thought that was a good reference point). I thought I could put boiling water into the Ziploc bags and rest the bags on the areas that need heating. I seal the bag air tight with about 2 cups of boiling water, and when I rest it onto the neck joint, the bag just forms right around the neck and heats the area up pretty well. As long as I'm careful about the integrity of the Ziploc bag, there is no mess to clean up! The picture above is a mock up, but I left the bag in this position for 5 minutes, then filled the bag with new boiling water and applied heat for another 5 minutes, and repeated one more time. Between each attempt, I held the body firm and wiggled the neck to see if the neck would budge. The neck began to move a bit after the 2nd try and by the end of the 3rd attempt, I could tell the adhesive was loosening up nicely. From there I just applied some consistent, but gentle nudging and she came off quite easily. Frankly, I'm not sure this would work on a neck that has a well fit dove tail joint; and for some guitars, there is a danger that the heel of the neck could come apart. Fortunately, this CC247 held together quite well. In retrospect, I think it is a better option than drilling holes and steaming the joint as that can be messy and risky if you drill in the wrong place. Since the joint construction was unknown to me before the neck removal. It seemed like the less risky method to start with...
Edited by arumako 2015-09-27 12:24 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Now that is a great idea. Great out-of-the-box thinking.
FWIW, HHG is pretty heat resistant except in the presence of moisture. That's why guys will drill a couple of holes into the 12th fret slot and use a steam needle to loosen the heel glue joint. As you say, it's a pretty messy affair. |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2015-09-26 9:37 PM
Now that is a great idea. Great out-of-the-box thinking.
FWIW, HHG is pretty heat resistant except in the presence of moisture. That's why guys will drill a couple of holes into the 12th fret slot and use a steam needle to loosen the heel glue joint. As you say, it's a pretty messy affair.
Okay, that makes sense. HHG's 145 degree F melting point is contingent upon moisture! I remember reading some great threads on the OFC about hide glue.
After thinking about the bolt on conversion and the current condition of the neck's dove tail joint, I've decided to convert the neck/bowl joint to a tenon/mortise configuration. I'll fill the bowl's dovetail cavity with Smooth-on Onyx molding resin (a liquid resin that hardens quickly with minimal shrinkage), and route the mortise joint and neck block into the newly molded area of the bowl. Then I'll cut, chisel & dremel the neck joint into a tenon joint, drill holes and add the bolt on hardware. Proper alignment is going to be crucial...
...now, I just need to wait for the molding resin to arrive...
hurry, hurry, hurry... |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2015-09-26 9:37 PM
Now that is a great idea. Great out-of-the-box thinking.
FWIW, HHG is pretty heat resistant except in the presence of moisture. That's why guys will drill a couple of holes into the 12th fret slot and use a steam needle to loosen the heel glue joint. As you say, it's a pretty messy affair.
Okay, that makes sense. HHG's 145 degree F melting point is contingent upon moisture! I remember reading some great threads on the OFC about hide glue.
After thinking about the bolt on conversion and the current condition of the neck's dove tail joint, I've decided to convert the neck/bowl joint to a tenon/mortise configuration. I'll fill the bowl's dovetail cavity with Smooth-on Onyx molding resin (a liquid resin that hardens quickly with minimal shrinkage), and route the mortise joint and neck block into the newly molded area of the bowl. Then I'll cut, chisel & dremel the neck joint into a tenon joint, drill holes and add the bolt on hardware. Proper alignment is going to be crucial...
...now, I just need to wait for the molding resin to arrive...
hurry, hurry, hurry... |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | I'm not sure the mortise/tenon have to be all that precise of a fit. The bolt(s) tightness more or less lock the neck into place.
As I recall, when I did the neck reset on my friend's 1982 CE, there was a fair amount of side-to-side and top-to-bottom play. (1/16" or so)
Instead of machining the cavity into the casting resin, another possibility is to clean up the neck dovetail, removing all the resin, then wax it up with melted bee's wax. Put the casting resin into to body cavity, then clamp the neck into place so that the neck itself forms the cavity in the neck block.
After that, it should be a simple matter of drilling the holes for the bolts and installing the threaded inserts into the neck heel.
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2015-09-28 6:54 AM
I'm not sure the mortise/tenon have to be all that precise of a fit. The bolt(s) tightness more or less lock the neck into place.
Thanks for always providing insightful and reliable advice DanSavage. I was looking through the archives to see if I might locate documentation about the work you did on your friend's 1982 Collector's Edition but couldn't find anything on the OFC...some other forum perhaps? Your threads are always full of helpful information, and I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask... |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | "After that, it should be a simple matter of drilling the holes for the bolts and installing the threaded inserts into the neck heel."
Just a suggestion, which may, or may not, be obvious: Drill the holes, with the neck in the joint, to begin with. Keeps things lined up. |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | seesquare - 2015-09-30 1:32 AM
Just a suggestion, which may, or may not, be obvious: Drill the holes, with the neck in the joint, to begin with. Keeps things lined up.
Thanks seesquare! Forgive my "ignoramosity" but if I drill the holes with the neck in place...that means I have to drill from inside the bowl...very little working space...the dremel will fit nicely, but visibility will be minimal...not sure my hands are steady enough to hit the mark and keep things squared up...is there a special tool/jig that you professionals use for this sort of thing? |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | arumako - 2015-09-30 12:32 AM
Thanks for always providing insightful and reliable advice DanSavage. I was looking through the archives to see if I might locate documentation about the work you did on your friend's 1982 Collector's Edition but couldn't find anything on the OFC...some other forum perhaps? Your threads are always full of helpful information, and I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask...
Unfortunately, I never created a thread on the OFC for that work. I did take some pics with my phone, but have since deleted them. |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | arumako - 2015-09-30 4:01 PM
Thanks seesquare! Forgive my "ignoramosity" but if I drill the holes with the neck in place...that means I have to drill from inside the bowl...very little working space...the dremel will fit nicely, but visibility will be minimal...not sure my hands are steady enough to hit the mark and keep things squared up...is there a special tool/jig that you professionals use for this sort of thing?
Here's how I would do it.
First, drill the holes in the neck block in the bowl from the outside.
Next, place the neck into place in the bowl, then either drill the holes from the inside using a dremel, or mark the position of the holes from the inside using a pencil and drill the holes in the heel after removing the neck from the bowl. Of the two, I'd mark the holes with a pencil and drill them with full access to the heel. To keep the drill bit square you can use a drill guide.
You'll definitely want to use a Forstner bit or at the very least a brad point bit. I would not use a regular high-speed bit as it'll be difficult to control the depth and the last thing you'll want to do is to go too deep and poke a hole in the heel. High speed drill bits also tend to wander in a hand drill whereas the Forstner and brad point bits do not.
Of the two, I'd use a Forstner bit as you will be left with a smooth, flat-bottomed hole and they're easy to control the depth of the hole.
If you use a brad point bit, use a drill stop collar to control the depth. In the modeling world, these are called wheel collars.
Once you've got the hole(s) drilled in the heel, it's just a matter of installing the threaded inserts. Some luthiers glue these in with epoxy or CA to prevent them from backing out. Of the two, I'd use a slow-set epoxy so the insert doesn't get glued half-way in.
Here's a neck reset the guy on frets.com did on a spanish-heel neck that a similar job to what you're doing.
The first few pages deals with cutting off the neck and the two pages you're interested in are on converting it to a bolt-on neck.
http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/BCRI...
Edited by DanSavage 2015-09-30 11:45 PM
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | Thanks a bunch DanSavage. That's some really helpful information! |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | Well, watching Tennessee and DanSavage having all that fun with their various projects has given me the itch to move forward with this project. Actually, it's turning out to be more like a science project instead of a guitar restoration...here's some of the key materials I'll be experimenting with... 
I've decided to fill the dove tail cavity in the body with black resin used to cast molds. This stuff made by Smooth-on has impressive specs and dries in 5 to 10 minutes with minimal shrinkage. The mixed resin quickly heats up to the boiling point of water and dries quickly as heat dissipates so I won't have a lot of dilly dally time... the bowl needed to be completely flat to allow the mixed liquid resin to flow quickly and smoothly into all areas of the cavity...they say, "desperation is the mother of invention" and so out of desperation, I converted an old foldable coffee table to serve as my body supporting jig... 
Ooh...nice and flat! The blue foam pads ensure the sound board is protected, and it is cut to accommodate the buldging bridge. To prevent the liquid resin from flowing out of the bowl, I needed to dam up the openings with thick aluminum foil sheets. The sheets are treated with a wax similar to Beeswax (thanks for the recommendation DanSavage) to act as a release agent. 
The wood blocks and clamps simply ensure that the aluminum sheets stay in place immediately after the resin mixture is poured in. I'll fill the cavity to the top of the sound board and route a cavity to make room for the wood truss-rod block on the neck. Then I'll route the mortise into the body. I sharpened my chisels and practiced on some wood blocks to make a tenon joint, and things seem to be working out okay, and I'm building the courage to take the chisel to the actual neck. I took "tpa"s advice and went with the M6 bolts at 4cm... 
This should provide plenty of holding power and stability although... 
I'm still debating whether to go with the tapered steel inserts or the straight ones...I'll be pouring the resin into the dove tail cavity tomorrow. Feels good to make a little progress, keeping my fingers crossed...
Edited by arumako 2015-10-16 11:41 AM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Arumako, you need to make sure that your photobucket photos are marked for "Public" view.
You also cannot edit a photo after you have linked it to a thread, or it won't link any longer.
Otherwise we just see an annoyed kitty cat.
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | arumako - 2015-10-16 9:17 AM
This stuff made by Smooth-on has impressive specs and dries in 5 to 10 minutes with minimal shrinkage. The mixed resin quickly heats up to the boiling point of water and dries quickly as heat dissipates so I won't have a lot of dilly dally time... the bowl needed to be completely flat to allow the mixed liquid resin to flow quickly and smoothly into all areas of the cavity...
If the resin gets this hot, it will probably melt the wax to the point where it will no longer serve as a release agent and allow the resin to come into contact with the bare wood, effectively gluing the neck to the bowl. =O
So, you might want to use something else as a release agent, like PVA. (poly-vinyl alcohol)
PVA is the typical product used as a release agent for fiberglass molding.
Or, contact the manufacture of the resin to find out what they recommend using as a release agent when casting wood pieces as molds. |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | arthurseery - 2015-10-16 3:33 AM
Arumako, you need to make sure that your photobucket photos are marked for "Public" view.
You also cannot edit a photo after you have linked it to a thread, or it won't link any longer.
Otherwise we just see an annoyed kitty cat.
Oops! My bad...I changed the name of the album after I posted! So sorry everybody. Thanks for the notice OMA. I hope renaming the album to the original name fixes the problem. On my end it looks okay...how does it look out there?
BTW, thanks for the tip on the Beeswax DanSavage. Smooth-on recommends a specific release agent. I'll make sure to verify before I proceed!
Edited by arumako 2015-10-16 2:45 PM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | arumako - 2015-10-16 12:31 PM
BTW, thanks for the tip on the Beeswax DanSavage. Smooth-on recommends a specific release agent. I'll make sure to verify before I proceed!
NP. I'd even test the stuff on scrap wood before proceeding to the neck. |
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Celebrity Deluxe CC247 Neck Reset
