|
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | I replaced the top on an O with one I made, loosely following a ladder-braced design from the 40's on a .120" thick Bubinga top. It was supposed to yield a top that was "very loose with lots of midrange." I posted pics a little while ago. Looks wise I love it; sound wise I don't.
It yielded a top that is all midrange, and very quiet - the guitar does not project well at all. (I don't really know how "loose" is supposed to relate to guitars - I suppose it's propositioned my other guitars?)
As I want to learn as much as possible from this experience, I have a Question or two for the luthiers out there:
Any ideas why this happened? What would contibute and what can be done to fix it?
I suppose that the trapeze tailpiece contributes a lot as there isn't a lot of break angle, therefore not a lot of downward pressure on the top? Correct?
Any other ideas? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Ladder-bracing was a quick, easy way to mass-produce budget guitars, and coupled with a tailpiece, thats what you get, midrange, not a whole lot of volume, pretty short sustain and not much else. That's exactly how all those cheap vintage guitars sounded. The break angle is not really relevant, a better break angle may increase volume very slightly, but too much with that simple lateral bracing pattern will cause the top to sink.
Ladder braced guitars tend to be good for slide and fingerstyle blues and maybe even gypsy jazz, but not a whole lot else.
So, you seem to have done a pretty good job of building a flat-top, ladder braced, tailpiece guitar. It's not fair to compare this construction to a fixed bridge flat-top, as the physics involved in the way the top is torqued is completely different, which is why flat-top fixed bridge guitars sound the way they do, and flat-top tailpiece guitars sound different. Now an arched-top tailpiece guitar is a whole other thing.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Bubinga isn't necessarily a good "tone-wood" either, is it?? . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | bubinga look good on sides of guitar, but i don't think it's a good wood for the top.
I have the same feeling about koa. I've played on 3 guitars with koa tops, and all looked stunning but sounded very ordinary. they weren't loud, they didn't project bass very well but were quite balanced with clear separation between tones of every string.
none of them was ovation, so maybe coupled with bowl it sounds better. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Might work better with a .090 to.100 thick top and an X style brace of some sort. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3603
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Thanks for the input, Paul. I've been noodling around with a supershallow, cutaway bowl, tailpiece, 2-knobber design. Your observations will definitely influence my thinking & engineering.
Ideally then, what type of top works best with a flat-top, tailpiece design, with say, an "A"-brace pattern? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3603
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | And, as a follow-up question, would an Adamas-pattern significantly influence your recommendations? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | It's all a balancing act... They have made some great sounding guitars from crap materials, because they knew how to balance the materials with design/construction... One instance of this is the "Pallet Guitars" (made, you guessed it, from shipping pallets)
Among the all the brace patterns used on O's the "A", "Quintad" and "scalloped X" sound best...
As for tops... your best to think strong and light weight. Dense woods as tops would best be milled to a thinner thickness, and braced more lightly... Ladder bracing is among the heaviest bracing styles and typically yields a mellower tone and lower volumes... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | My Bubinga topped 99 Collector's, while one of the prettier guitars, is far from the best sounding. I'm not sure if it's the midbowl, the Bubinga top, or both, but it's a bit weak, especially on the bass end. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Pallet Guitar
 |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | pallet guitar pics |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Originally posted by seesquare:
Thanks for the input, Paul. I've been noodling around with a supershallow, cutaway bowl, tailpiece, 2-knobber design. Your observations will definitely influence my thinking & engineering.
Ideally then, what type of top works best with a flat-top, tailpiece design, with say, an "A"-brace pattern? Flattop, tailpiece and simple lateral (ladder) bracing has always been a means to make cheap guitars that will be easy to manufacture, sound acceptable and won't implode under string tension. In terms of structural integrity it takes a great deal more skill to make a flattop with a fixed bridge than something with a tailpiece. Tone with these old, cheap guitars was always a secondary consideration. There are also examples of fixed bridge ladder-braded guitars such as certain pre-war Stellas, Epiphone Caballeros, some Gibson LG's, early Washburns and a ton of others and they have similar short sustain, midrange bias, low volume charateristics as tailpiece flattops.
The only arguable exeption is the Maccaferri guitars which were ostensibly flattop guitars (though they followed early mandolin "bent-top" construction ideas) specifically designed for a tailpiece and moveable bridge. These guitars have the characteristic shorter sustain, reduced bass and exagerated midrange of tailpiece flattops, though they can project very well.
The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how good the materials are, a flattop guitar with a tailpiece and a moveable bridge is going to sound a certain way. You can influence that tone somewhat with bracing or whatever, but trying to make that construction method sound like something else (like a flattop fixed-bridge guitar for example) is like trying to make a dog bark like a cat. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Thank you all very much for your inputs! It makes me feel better, in that I guess I got exactly what I was supposed to get!
I like the looks, and it's a really nice guitar to practice on at low volume levels, so while it doesn't have the lungs of a regular O, I still like it and I learned a ton from doing this! And I still haven't heard it amplified.
Next up:
An early Classic gets a Ziricote top. I won't do ladder bracing on this one.... ;) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Regardless of the bracing pattern don't use Ziracote, it's a waste of a good back set, especially with nylon strings. Ziracote is rosewood family and is similar in weight and density. You can use hardwoods such as ziracote, walnut, bubinga, mahogany or whatever exotic hardwood you like, but it takes a lot of experience and skill to make a hardwood work anywhere near as well as a traditional spruce or cedar top. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | regarding that pallette guitar.
I believe that guitar from the link above has a laminated back (except center part) and sides. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Shame . . . . wasted a PERFECTLY good pallet. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | That link to the pics of the pallet guitar is hilarious. Bob Taylor makes a guitar out of the shittiest possible materials to prove, quite rightly, that a luthiers skill can actually make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Then they make a bunch, call them "Limited Editions" and charge $10K apiece. Now that's what Taylor are spectacularly good at...... marketing. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | that irony wasn't lost on me... |
|
| |
Top Construction - Questions
