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Posts: 28
| http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=44...
I posted this thread in the welcome section when I first joined. I don't know how to move the thread, so here's the link to the entire thread.
I appreciate any advice given in advance!
Jeff |
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Posts: 4025
Location: Utah | If you are the original owner the repairs should be covered by warrantee if there is no damage due to abuse. The factory repair shop has always done superb work and, at least in my experiences, more than fair.
If you have some very thin feeler gauges or something similar, gently run the edge along the glue joints between the braces and the top. There could be sextions of bracing which have come loose but aren't felt when you wiggle them by hand. If the only problem is a bad wood to wood glue joint, a good local luthier who is approved by the factory could regule them for you without shipping the guitar back to the factory. As you are the original owner, I would not jeopardize the warrantee by having unapproved shops work on it.
The pieces which are loose in your pictures are probably some kind of plastic or maybe carbon fiber. I've got something similar on my A braced 1976 Ovation, and those pieces are some kind of plastic which are epoxied in place.
The guitar sounds so good because it has a very very thin top with minimal bracing. As long as you take care not to abuse it (e.g. thumping the top with your right hand for percussion), and keep it properly humidified, it should last a lifetime.
I can't tell from your pictures, but is the top behind the bridge bowing up? My 1976 developed two loose braces which then over a few months allowed a belly to develop. It was easty to glue the braces back in place using deep clamps and good carpenter's glue. I would suspect a broken brace or a broken glue joint in the area of where the deformation is happening. Is your humindity stable in your home, and is it in a healthy range of about 30% to 50%? |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | That's an awful nice guitar UglyEarly. Sorry to hear that you're having problems with it. As Damon67 says, those metal brace supports are found on all A braced Os I've seen. My son's A-braced 1861 has them too, but as TAFKAR says, it does look weird. The metal brace supports on my son's 1861 is straight and flush to the bracing...I have the same "bowing into the soundhole" problem on some of my older acoustics ('74 Yamaha FG160 & '87 Fxxxxr F-330-12), but none of my working O's. It definitely looks like a humidity issue - I see a lot of this kind of thing in Japan. I just bought an 1990 1868 Elite that had been through enormous humidity and temperature changes to attempt a restoration. I removed the top and it was severely bowed. The top straightened out after some humidification, but I can tell that more drying and humidifying is just going to splinter the sound board. I've opted to put on a new top myself. As much as I'd like to send my guitars to Mr. Budny for repairs, the shipping costs from Japan simply make it economically unfeasible. Fortunately, I've got tools, some experience with woodworking and a bunch of nice folks that give me great advice at the OFC. Actually, I think I'm addicted to guitar restoration. But if I lived in the States, I'd definitely send it in. It's one thing to hack at an 1868 Elite...an ADII would be quite a different story! |
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Posts: 28
| Mr Budny said $300 if under warranty and I think $800 if not, but that was to replace the top. I have no proof of original ownership and don't even remember where I ordered it from. I have too many guitars to remember and it was years ago....
Hopefully the top will straighten out. I'm adding humidity with the strings off now....
We shall see! |
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Posts: 4025
Location: Utah | Talk to John about how to prove ownership. With luck you sent in the warranty card when you purchased it. They may be able to find a way to work with you on it. |
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Posts: 555
Location: Denmark | 
This looks like a guitar badly in need of a luthier. If the top straightens when humidified and no strings you should have these bracings repaired. The whatever-it-is glued to the top of the brace doesn't look to be a sufficiently good repair. Either because it was insufficient solution or because it was badly done. In any case it has been overloaded and need repair.
Edited by tpa 2014-12-20 2:09 PM
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December 2014
Posts: 28
| tpa - 2014-12-20 2:02 PM
This looks like a guitar badly in need of a luthier. If the top straightens when humidified and no strings you should have these bracings repaired. The whatever-it-is glued to the top of the brace doesn't look to be a sufficiently good repair. Either because it was insufficient solution or because it was badly done. In any case it has been overloaded and need repair.
That is no repair. That is USA factory work you are seeing. I use 10-47 strings with an unwound G so it feels like my electrics and I tune 1\2 step down. It should have been able to handle a lot more of a load than that.
I agree that it looks bad. Out of 30+ guitars, this one has had the least abuse by far (no abuse at all). I have played through the tops of a yairi and an el-cheapo ibanez over the years and they still stayed perfectly straight. This is the only guitar failure I've had except a headstock break on a Gibson Les Paul and it was dropped. My 25 year old Takamine has been left outside all night and has stayed in a garage/band room that goes from below freezing to 90 degrees and it is perfectly straight to this day (I didn't take care of my guitars in my youth).
As I said, there is absolutely no excuse for this other than faulty material/poor craftsmanship.
I hate to say this, but maybe that's why the US factory is no more. If this is their best of the best custom, and I've had binding not glued in 3 spots and now this, who knows what the cheaper US models are like.
I owned a cheap Applause years ago and literally beat the hell out of it for a decade and didn't even have a case and I know the owner of it and it is still just fine. Now that guitar was ABUSED! This one has been absolutely babied due to the large investment.
I am really just disgusted.....
There is really no excuse for this. If it was me, I would own up to it. That just isn't the case at all.
Edited by UglyEarly 2014-12-20 4:18 PM
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Location: Denmark | I would probably feel the same way. I can and will not judge if the damages were evident already at the time of manufacturing or if the guitar has been exposed to some extreme temperature or humidity which may have caused the problems. Nonetheless your best shot is to talk to the good side of the crew under Budny which are - and may I add well deserved - highly estimated for their good service and workmanship in the service department. If they still represent the good guarantee which were given with US Ovations to US customers - and I dont know if this is the case - they may be open for a reasonable agreement on the repair of your guitar.
Edited by tpa 2014-12-20 5:55 PM
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December 2014
Posts: 28
| I've been in contact with John Budny several times. He said to wait until after the new year. He also said that these tops move and it is especially noticeable in black. He also said I shouldn't be concerned about a tiny shift in the top.
I don't know what to think. Maybe I just don't understand Ovations. It does sound and play amazing and the top looks really good until you really look it over. Maybe I should just play it like it is.
I also noticed that I can move the top up and down with moderate hand pressure and my other acoustics don't do this (I tried on my American Breed love, my Alvarez Yairi, and and my old Takamine). It seems that this top is much thinner than the others I own. It also has less bracing and smaller braces. That's probably why I love the sound but it may also be why all the others use thicker tops with more bracing.
The braces in this are few and TINY! Much of the top is unbraced. It's definitely different than my other guitars.... |
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Posts: 555
Location: Denmark | UglyEarly - 2014-12-20 5:54 PM
A) Maybe I should just play it like it is.
B) I also noticed that I can move the top up and down with moderate hand pressure
A -> I wouldn't. If I had 28 guitars I would pick another one until they open again and then get this one repaired.
B -> Not the case with the Ovations in my possession
Edited by tpa 2014-12-20 6:04 PM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | I looked at your other pics and I see two main problems with the top braces. The top is sinking because the main brace and reinforcement are busted loose from the top. There is a crack right here. 
The main bass brace reinforcement looks like it's popped loose from the main brace. 
The metal reinforcement is factory. My 1995 1719CL has the same strips that reinforce the main A brace glue joint. They used to be made from fiberglass. Here's what the fiberglass strip looks like on my 1617 Legend. 
Unlike yours, the holes in the metal strips on my 1719CL are all filled with epoxy. Yours are empty. This strip supports the main glue joint in the A brace. If it's broken loose, then it will allow the brace and top to bend at the point of the glue joint. Personally, I wouldn't play it in this condition. The top braces are broken. I would slacken the strings, then fix the top. This would be a fairly simple repair to do. WRT the bracing, Charlie liked to experiment with different brace patterns to get the sound he was looking for. The A brace balances the response so the bass doesn't overpower the treble and makes for a great-sounding guitar. It sounds different than X-braced guitars, but it's still a good sounding pattern. Personally, I prefer a little brighter, bolder sound, so I'm a fan of the X brace. Dan
Edited by DanSavage 2014-12-25 10:48 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | After posting the above pics I noticed something else.
The bass brace reinforcement is definitely broken loose on your guitar. This is probably why it's easy to move the top in and out.
The top three arrows in the pic below are pointing to the glue rivets formed when the perforated metal strip is glued to the braces. The bottom two arrows show that the metal brace has popped off the rivets and has shifted over to the side. 
This tells me that the guitar top bracing definitely needs repair. Personally, I don't think it needs a whole new top. It just needs to have the broken braces glued back together. Dan |
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Posts: 555
Location: Denmark | Good observations, DanSavage. I overlooked the crack in the brace. When the reinforcement is repaired it should be replaced by a longer piece which also covers the indicated crack at the end of the original reinforcement strip. The reinforcement strips take the bending load of the string pull and should - as well as the glue joints - be stiff and strong. In my Pinnacle which is supposed to have the "Modified A" bracing these outer bracings are different in that they are straight through and some 30% higher where the join the member going across which transfer the end forses from the secondary braces. Maybe that's the "Modified" part of it.
It is difficult to imagine what caused the indicate side shift other than - what the glue on the bracing also indicates - the reinforcement strip was either badly located or inverted at glue time.
Edited by tpa 2014-12-25 1:24 PM
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Posts: 28
| Thanks, guys! Now those are the responses I needed. I think I see a crack there as well and I definitely need the brace reglued regardless.
John Budny has already sent me a return authorization number and I have located a copy of the original receipt from January, 2009. This guitar was manufactured in 2008 it seems.
The strings are off and have been since I took the pics. I just hope the top will straighten out....
I am letting John handle this. Hopefully warranty will cover it. Who knows?
Thanks again, and I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas! |
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Posts: 555
Location: Denmark | Good luck with the repair. If you mention your worries in the description which you will probably send in with the guitar they will most certainly take them into consideration. |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | Great observations as usual DanSavage! You've got some great folks helping out with your ADII, UglyEarly! DanSavage's comments are right on! Not a humidity issue after all, which makes sense, since your O was made in 2008. With Mr. Budny on the case, you can't go wrong. You'll fall in love all over again when she gets back! Make sure to post and let us know how it goes! |
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Posts: 28
| I will keep you all in the loop. I am excited to get "Al" back in all her prior glory. I'm sure she will be as good or better than when I got her.
Jeff |
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Posts: 28
| Okay, I'm sending Al back for repair tomorrow. My local music store loaned me a new Martin DCPA1 Plus. Brand new with the Fishman Aura plus. It lists for $3999. Internet price is $2999. He told me he'd sell it to me for $2200, so I bought it. It sounds different than Al and doesn't play as well, but I am really enjoying playing it and starting to embrace my Breedlove as well lately. I've even been playing my Yairi and my old Takamine since I took the strings off Al. I'm really digging the woody tones.
I might be selling Al if my love affair continues with this Martin. If I can get a clean bill of health and make her look new again. I will offer her here first so she is loved for a fair price. I'm honestly not sure I'll ever trust the bracing again. It failed for no apparent reason. That scares me.
If she comes back sub-par, I'll eBay or trade her off. I really hate that I've lost confidence in Al.....it sucks.....
If anyone's interested, just let me know. I have all the paperwork and will make her look basically new. The case has some scuffs but will clean up. I'll clean the pick marks off the top. There may be some light scratches but no dings or chips anywhere. Like I stated, it has been babied. |
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Posts: 28
| Well, John Budny and I had a nice talk today. They've been working on Al for several weeks. He says I'll be happy for certain. I'm getting pretty excited. He doesn't want to ship Al over the weekend with the cold weather they're having, so Al will start the journey home Monday.
I'm still enjoying the Martin and I've been playing a Taylor 614ce also lately, but I am getting stoked to have Al back. I guess I've gotten pretty attached to Al over the years.
I will let you know how Al looks and plays in a week or so!
Jeff |
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Posts: 555
Location: Denmark | Thanks for the update. Happy for you, and looking forward to a possible photo or two (of the guitar).
Edited by tpa 2015-02-06 10:06 AM
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John got all the scratches out too. It looks like new pretty much. It does play better than ever.
Jeff |
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Posts: 4025
Location: Utah | Beautiful! |
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December 2014
Posts: 28
| FlySig - 2015-02-14 3:11 PM
Beautiful!
Thanks! I agree! It's pretty much a work of art....
A real shame they will never make any more of these....
Jeff |
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December 2014
Posts: 28
| FlySig - 2015-02-14 3:11 PM
Beautiful!
Thanks! I agree! It's pretty much a work of art....
A real shame they will never make any more of these....
Jeff |
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Posts: 846
Location: Canada | I am glad to hear this worked out well for you, sure looks great ... was it partially covered by warranty? |
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issues with adii top
