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Location: Lake Forest, CA | immoody - 2014-08-29 11:54 PM
Crappy singer in that video, but I really liked the guitar. It was similar to my A braced Legend, but to my ears, it had a little more depth and a little more in the balls department. A little different than any other Ovation I've ever played. I liked it a lot and could be very tempted to have Dan re-top an old beat up Legend, if I could scrape the money together (have to find the guitar too!). When Ovation came out with the LX, they got close to this, but this is what they should have done at that time. Deep bowl and this bracing, I think on sound alone, they would have kicked a@@.
Dan wants to build his own bowls. I think he could do well just re-topping existing Ovations. But if he does one for me, I want a good deal from him 'cause I'm his first endorsee......
Thanks, Paul.
I agree. It has a sound all its own, a very unique timbre.
If you decide to have me re-top a guitar for you, I'll make you the best deal in town, just because you're my first endorsee. :D
Dan |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | arumako - 2014-08-30 1:11 AM
Awesome Moody, p.i.! Looks like so much fun! I am just amazed by the sound of your 1619-4 DanSavage - so impressive! The tonal characteristics of the bracing, fiberglass bowl and Bear claw spruce top are just phenomenal. Vintage Ovation for sure, but more than that...it almost sounds like a 12-string...very complex, full, punchy and clear...just...wow! It's been a good summer, but this just kind of rounds it out for me! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks, arumako.
I definitely stumbled upon a great combination. Everything I did came together perfectly to give the guitar a unique voice that makes it really stand out from the crowd. I'm very curious to see if I duplicate the voice on the next guitar I do.
Dan |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | Btw, I meant to ask if you thought the nitrate dope and butyrate finish coats have contributed to the stunning voice of your 1619-4. I've never used the stuff much less even heard of it until I read your post, but the finish must be different than any lacquer of polyurethane based finish? In the past, I used some hand rubbing wax finish on one of my electrics and it affected the tone quite a bit...just curious... |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Actually, nitrate dope is the same thing as nitrocellulose lacquer. It's just known by a different name in aviation circles. But, in that realm, it's strictly used as a primer because of its delicacy. Butyrate dope is also a lacquer, but because it has a different formulation, it has more chemical resistance.
At this point I couldn't say how much the dope finish contributes to how the 1619 sounds. Aircraft finishes, such as dope are usually applied to fabric. So, they have to be flexible and endure being out in the direct sunlight and cold damp night air. I've read a little bit about the subject of lacquer finishes vs. polyurethane and a lot of people are of the opinion that what really matters is keeping the finish as thin as possible. This makes a lot of sense to me because the thinner finishes allow the wood to resonate better.
I think the unique sound of my 1619 is the product of a lot of things. I used a high quality top wood, known for good resonance. I thinned the top wood to 3/32" (.09375" instead of the usual .10". I hand-scraped both the top and bottom of the top wood after thinning. I used a shaped, scalloped X-brace set made from Sitka spruce. I carefully sanded all the braces smooth and rounded the sharp corners. I forward-shifted the braces to allow the lower bout to vibrate more freely. I tapered the transverse brace instead of leaving it half-round. I didn't tuck any of the braces. Instead, I spaced them so there was a 1/8" gap between all the braces. I used a 3/32" rosewood bridge plate instead of the usual 1/8" maple. I used hide glue to attach the braces and bridge. I was careful to keep the amount of glue to a minimum. And, finally, I applied a (fairly) thin lacquer finish.
So, I think it's a lot like building a light model airplane. It's not any one thing you do, but a lot of little things add up. I'm sure that if I were to change any one of these things, the guitar would sound different. And, the more I were to change, the larger the difference would be. |
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Location: Maine | Dan , Excellent rebuild! I've thoroughly enjoyed watching your progress from a relic to a gem.
I think we're all waiting for the video slide show and sound clips of the final project
,Talbot
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Hi Talbot,
I'm not sure if you saw the post with this info, but Paul Moody and I got together with the guitar gang on Friday night. He brought his re-topped 1117 and I, my 1619. We swapped guitars and he played my 1619 for a while. My wife videotaped him during one of the songs he played and I uploaded the video to YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTlSo8PLhao
Enjoy!
Dan |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2014-08-30 2:47 PM
Actually, nitrate dope is the same thing as nitrocellulose lacquer. It's just known by a different name in aviation circles. But, in that realm, it's strictly used as a primer because of its delicacy. Butyrate dope is also a lacquer, but because it has a different formulation, it has more chemical resistance.
At this point I couldn't say how much the dope finish contributes to how the 1619 sounds. Aircraft finishes, such as dope are usually applied to fabric. So, they have to be flexible and endure being out in the direct sunlight and cold damp night air. I've read a little bit about the subject of lacquer finishes vs. polyurethane and a lot of people are of the opinion that what really matters is keeping the finish as thin as possible. This makes a lot of sense to me because the thinner finishes allow the wood to resonate better.
I think the unique sound of my 1619 is the product of a lot of things. I used a high quality top wood, known for good resonance. I thinned the top wood to 3/32" (.09375") instead of the usual .10". I hand-scraped both the top and bottom of the top wood after thinning. I used a shaped, scalloped X-brace set made from Sitka spruce. I carefully sanded all the braces smooth and rounded the sharp corners. I forward-shifted the braces to allow the lower bout to vibrate more freely. I tapered the transverse brace instead of leaving it half-round. I didn't tuck any of the braces. Instead, I spaced them so there was a 1/8" gap between all the braces. I used a 3/32" rosewood bridge plate instead of the usual 1/8" maple. I used hide glue to attach the braces and bridge. I was careful to keep the amount of glue to a minimum. And, finally, I applied a (fairly) thin lacquer finish.
So, I think it's a lot like building a light model airplane. It's not any one thing you do, but a lot of little things add up. I'm sure that if I were to change any one of these things, the guitar would sound different. And, the more I were to change, the larger the difference would be.
Thanks for the reply DanSavage. It's amazing how much thought went into the "not so obvious" areas of the guitar. No wonder she sounds so fabulous. As usual, your information regarding the finish is super informative and helpful. I can't wait to see your next project!
Edited by arumako 2014-08-31 8:47 AM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | arumako - 2014-08-31 6:42 AM
Thanks for the reply DanSavage. It's amazing how much thought went into the "not so obvious" areas of the guitar. No wonder she sounds so fabulous. As usual, your information regarding the finish is super informative and helpful. I can't wait to see your next project!
Thanks, arumako.
Everything I did was done for one purpose, to make the top as responsive as I could.
Actually, I made a couple of mistakes that turned out okay. The first was that I put the finger braces in the wrong spot according to the Stewmac plans I was using. The second was the finger braces had the wrong shape. But, now, since the guitar sounds so good, I'm probably going to keep these the same. The last thing I'd want to do is to change these and have the guitar end up not sound as good as mine.
You're welcome. When I start the next project I'll post a new thread to document it.
Dan
Edited by DanSavage 2014-09-01 1:11 AM
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Location: Maine | DanSavage - 2014-08-31 7:49 AM
Hi Talbot,
I'm not sure if you saw the post with this info, but Paul Moody and I got together with the guitar gang on Friday night. He brought his re-topped 1117 and I, my 1619. We swapped guitars and he played my 1619 for a while. My wife videotaped him during one of the songs he played and I uploaded the video to YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTlSo8PLhao
Enjoy!
Dan
Yes I missed it. I had read earlier that you may get together with Moody.
Thanks for the link. I Check it when I get home from the holiday weekend
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Location: Indiana | Guitar sounds great Dan.
Nice job Paul. |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Thanks, Jonmark. |
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Location: Maine | Wow! You've set a new standard on saving the damaged ones
Looks and sounds great. I'm glad I never band sawed the bowl off to simply save the neck
Do you think others will be as easy to get the old top wood seperated from the bowl ?
What's most impressive to me is how you saved all the abalone binding
A+++
Edited by TJR 2014-09-02 3:00 PM
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | Thanks, Talbot.
Yes, I'm glad you never sawed the neck off. This has turned into a great guitar that will hopefully provide another 40 years of playing and listening pleasure.
As long as the epoxy on other guitars is as brittle as what it was on this one, then I can see no reason why it shouldn't work. Luckily, the factory used very fast-drying epoxy, so it never really got a chance to soak into the top wood. Instead it relied on biting into the surface irregularities for grip. This makes it good for removing the top from the kerfing.
Actually, I'm about to find out shortly. I've been asked to replace the top on another old Ovation gem and to do to that guitar what I did to mine. (bearclaw spruce, forward x-brace)
The guitar should be arriving after I get back from vacation and I'll start a new thread once I've got it in my hands and have had a chance to look it over.
Thanks! I'm really glad I was able to save the abalone, too. This guitar really deserved to be restored, even if the process left it with a few flaws, er, beauty marks. ;^)
Edited by DanSavage 2014-09-02 3:18 PM
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Location: Texas | "I've been asked to replace the top on another old Ovation gem " Yep! Dan agreed to give #485 a fresh look. This guitar has more cracks on the soundboard than the Prof has guitars. Nick Black at one time owned this guitar, gave up on it and sold it to a guy up north,from whom I bought it from. Due to its condition, it has been the guitar that is always in some room leaning against a wall that someone picks up and plays. It is a sweet sounding guitar with a fantastic neck, which is a two piece. I really appreciate Dan accepting my request to replace the soundboard. We are hoping that John B. can find a 40th RI rosette tucked away somewhere. Needless to say...I am stoked about this project. Thanks Dan! |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | You're welcome, Jay.
I am curious to hear how the original, simple X-brace used on this guitar sounds to the X-brace I used on mine. I'm sure the simple X-brace is the major reason it sounds as good as it does. There's nothing to impede the top from vibrating freely.
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Location: Upper Left USA | Forget the Show me your Woody Guitar posts.
In with the Savage Salvages!
Sweet! |
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Location: Lake Forest, CA | #485 should be a real interesting restoration. I'm looking forward to starting it.
New top and braces, definitely. Some sort of inlaid rosette.
Refinish headstock/neck with new decals & new body binding and bowl paint --possibly.
Here's a few rosette pics.
First, an OEM 1st-gen Balladeer rosette. Although this looks like real white MOP, I suspect it's imitation MOP with the rope and grapes printed on top. Real MOP is not available this large in one piece. I'll be able to tell once I get Jay's guitar in front of me. 
In searching online I found some really cool alternative rosettes that I bought.
Diamond #1. Black/White MOP & abalone. Not Ovation, but it looks nicer in real life than it does in the pic below.
Diamond #2. White MOP & abalone. Not as stunning as the one above, but still really pretty to look at. 
The pièce de résistance, an Ovation knock-off in white MOP & abalone. This one is interesting because I contacted the vendor asking if they could do one in black MOP and abalone. They agreed, but when I asked to exchange this one for the custom one they told me to get lost. Too bad, so sad... 
Edited by DanSavage 2014-09-04 1:08 AM
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1619-4 Rebuild...
