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1619-4 Rebuild...

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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-22 1:21 PM (#492533 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, guys.

Yeah, I realize I'm setting a dangerous precedent here that will probably result in a lot of guitar carnage and a lot of business for John & Co. ()

I should be ready to glue the bridge on this afternoon. Then, I should be ready to glue the rosette on tomorrow. After that, the only thing left to do is to install all the hardware and string it up to see how it sounds/plays. Needless to say, I'm getting pretty excited to be this close to finishing it.

Once this is done, and assuming the frets don't need immediate replacement, my next major project will be to use the bare bowl I've got as a plug to make a mold to make more bowls.

I've pretty much decided to attempt to make an Ovation knock-off from scratch. There will be some differences, such as the shape of the headstock and the rosette, but it will have a fiberglass bowl.

After that, I'd like to attempt to make a bowl-back guitar using molded wood for the bowl instead of fiberglass. I've been doing some research and bowl-back guitars aren't really all that new. Traditionally, the bowl-shape on the back guitars are called vaulted-backs.

Edited by DanSavage 2014-08-22 1:24 PM
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2014-08-22 2:31 PM (#492538 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750

Location: Boise, Idaho
Back in the olden days, we passed around a wood bowl backed imitation Ovation that Jeff bought in Indonesia or someplace. It was a shallow bowl, if I remember correctly. I like the sound of fiberglass or Lyrawhatever backs better.
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SOBeach
Posted 2014-08-22 3:00 PM (#492540 - in reply to #492527)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...


Joined:
April 2010
Posts: 823

Location: sitting at my computer

Cool, er  Glossy!   

The clouding issue and lacquer seepage may be a bit of bummer to ya, but gosh, still an impressive and inspiring job Dan. imho

 

DanSavage - 2014-08-22 10:50 AM  In the end I decided this was a learning experience...  

excellent attitude.

 

 

amosmoses - ... those of us that are thinking "hell, piece of cake"

 I've attempted makin' cake... wasn't pretty ... 'n barely edible. 

 
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arumako
Posted 2014-08-23 1:43 AM (#492553 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Thanks for sharing DanSavage! Well worth the summer long wait! How weird that the finish clouded up on you, but I must say your recovery and final finish is nothing short of inspiring! The carnage is already beginning in Japan!
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-23 9:14 AM (#492559 - in reply to #492538)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Mark in Boise - 2014-08-22 12:31 PM

Back in the olden days, we passed around a wood bowl backed imitation Ovation that Jeff bought in Indonesia or someplace. It was a shallow bowl, if I remember correctly. I like the sound of fiberglass or Lyrawhatever backs better.


Alvarez-Yairi made a wooden bowl guitar back in the 80s. (DY92) I wanted one, but they are extremely rare and seldom come up for sale. When they do, they're pretty pricey. One sold on eBay last September for $2k.

While searching around I found there are a few high-end designers making vaulted back guitars. The bowls on these aren't as pronounced as Os or the DY92.

We'll see. Once I get the tooling done to make my Ovation tribute guitar, then I'll make a wood bowl and see how it turns out.
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-23 9:17 AM (#492560 - in reply to #492540)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

SOBeach - 2014-08-22 1:00 PM

Cool, er  Glossy!   

The clouding issue and lacquer seepage may be a bit of bummer to ya, but gosh, still an impressive and inspiring job Dan. imho

 

DanSavage - 2014-08-22 10:50 AM  In the end I decided this was a learning experience...

excellent attitude.

 

amosmoses - ... those of us that are thinking "hell, piece of cake"

 I've attempted makin' cake... wasn't pretty ... 'n barely edible. 

 

Thanks for the kind words. Like I say, I've learned my lesson and I'm done with lacquer. I'll stick with petroleum-based finishes from now on. I can get a finish that's just as thin as lacquer, but without all the hassles.

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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-23 9:19 AM (#492561 - in reply to #492553)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
arumako - 2014-08-22 11:43 PM

Thanks for sharing DanSavage! Well worth the summer long wait! How weird that the finish clouded up on you, but I must say your recovery and final finish is nothing short of inspiring! The carnage is already beginning in Japan!


You're welcome. I got the bridge glued on yesterday and took the clamps off last night. I'll post some pics shortly.
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-23 9:55 AM (#492562 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

It's bridge-gluin' time...

As it comes from the factory, the bridges have a minor recess milled into the bottom. I have no idea what purpose these serve. It could be this gives a little more gluing surface for the epoxy, or it could be their way of roughing up the wood to give the epoxy some tooth.

Regardless, this wouldn't work with the hide glue because, unlike epoxy, hide glue has poor gap-filling capabilities. So, I sanded off the lip so the bottom of the bridge was completely flat. This did thin the bridge slightly, but only about .001". (~1/128")

Here's a look at the underside of a bridge that still has the recess and the CL bridge.

I wanted my bridge to match the color of the TRC, so I painted on some clear butryrate dope. When the dope was wet, it looked pretty good. After it dried, it went back to the color of the bare walnut. Since I couldn't add stain over the dope, I added some burnt sienna and raw umber dry artists pigment to the clear dope to make a dope stain. In the pic, the TRC looks a lot darker, but in real life they're pretty close to the same color. The bridge looks real nice on the guitar.



I glued together some scrap 1/4" marine ply and 1/2" medium balsa to make a bridge clamping caul. I used the balsa, first, because it's easy to carve and second, because I knew it wouldn't dent the carving on the bridge. It's a pretty crude-looking affair, but it works.

I cut out some scrap 1/8" basswood sheet stock to prevent the clamps from scratching/denting the finish.

I used some binding tape to keep the bridge plate clamping plate in place. Because the hide glue has such a short working time, I wanted to make sure I didn't have to mess around with keeping this plate aligned while putting the clamps in place.

I did a dry run to get the clamps preset and to practice which order they would be applied.

To increase the working time of the glue, I preheated the gluing surfaces of the bridge and top wood with my heat gun.

The bridge is glued and clamped and I got a nice squeeze-out of glue. I wiped this up with a moist paper towel and left the clamps in place for about 4 hours to let the glue harden. Once I took the clamps off I checked the neck geometry and it's still perfect with the top of the frets about 1/16" above the top of the bridge.

The next job is drilling the hole for the pre-amp wire and glue the rosette into place. Pics to follow.

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d'ovation
Posted 2014-08-23 10:04 AM (#492563 - in reply to #492559)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...


Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 846

Location: Canada

DanSavage - 2014-08-23 8:14 AM
Mark in Boise - 2014-08-22 12:31 PM Back in the olden days, we passed around a wood bowl backed imitation Ovation that Jeff bought in Indonesia or someplace. It was a shallow bowl, if I remember correctly. I like the sound of fiberglass or Lyrawhatever backs better.
Alvarez-Yairi made a wooden bowl guitar back in the 80s. (DY92) I wanted one, but they are extremely rare and seldom come up for sale. When they do, they're pretty pricey. One sold on eBay last September for $2k. While searching around I found there are a few high-end designers making vaulted back guitars. The bowls on these aren't as pronounced as Os or the DY92. We'll see. Once I get the tooling done to make my Ovation tribute guitar, then I'll make a wood bowl and see how it turns out.

I was always intrigued by these as well. Based on the design of a medieval Lute. In Japan they actually had three models. but these are probably just as difficult to find (I'm also trying to find a Tama TG-190).

 

 

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arumako
Posted 2014-08-23 10:43 AM (#492564 - in reply to #492533)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1018

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Just thoroughly enjoying your project, DanSavage. The bridge perfectly accentuates the Bear Claw soundboard - beautiful work. I've never seen Balsa used for any kind of a clamping much less a bridge caul! What an interesting idea. I would have thought the balsa would crush under the pressure of the clamps. How much clamping force are you applying on the bridge?

DanSavage - 2014-08-22 3:21 AM

Once this is done, and assuming the frets don't need immediate replacement, my next major project will be to use the bare bowl I've got as a plug to make a mold to make more bowls.

I've pretty much decided to attempt to make an Ovation knock-off from scratch. There will be some differences, such as the shape of the headstock and the rosette, but it will have a fiberglass bowl.

After that, I'd like to attempt to make a bowl-back guitar using molded wood for the bowl instead of fiberglass. I've been doing some research and bowl-back guitars aren't really all that new. Traditionally, the bowl-shape on the back guitars are called vaulted-backs.


You're ever in pursuit of the next challenge! I hope you'll be sharing those too! After more practice projects, I'm going to change the soundboard of my CC54i into Japanese Sakura (Cherry blossom). I already bought some highly figured Sakura blanks, and your "1619-4 Rebuild" will definitely provide valuable guidance! Can't wait to see your completed 1619-4!

Edited by arumako 2014-08-23 10:44 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-23 12:12 PM (#492566 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Final 'construction' steps:

Drill the bridge for the pick-up wire. First, mark the location.

Transfer the location to the bridge caul. The idea is that I'm going to use the bridge plate clamping plate as a drill backing so I don't blow out the rosewood bridge plate.

Use a spade bit to make a 9/16" hole which will be big enough to allow me to see the pick-up wire location once the bridge caul is clamped into place.

Hole is drilled. It needed a little sanding to enlarge it enough to allow the plug to pass through.

I used 5-minute epoxy out of a pre-mix nozzle to glue the rosette into place.

As of now, the guitar is pretty much done. I'm going to let the glue(s) dry until tomorrow, then install all the hardware and string it up. I can hardly wait. Pics to follow.

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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-23 5:24 PM (#492573 - in reply to #492563)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

merlin666 - 2014-08-23 8:04 AM

I was always intrigued by these as well. Based on the design of a medieval Lute. In Japan they actually had three models. but these are probably just as difficult to find (I'm also trying to find a Tama TG-190).

Here's a couple of pics of the DY92.

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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-23 5:36 PM (#492575 - in reply to #492564)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
arumako - 2014-08-23 8:43 AM

Just thoroughly enjoying your project, DanSavage. The bridge perfectly accentuates the Bear Claw soundboard - beautiful work. I've never seen Balsa used for any kind of a clamping much less a bridge caul! What an interesting idea. I would have thought the balsa would crush under the pressure of the clamps. How much clamping force are you applying on the bridge?

...

You're ever in pursuit of the next challenge! I hope you'll be sharing those too! After more practice projects, I'm going to change the soundboard of my CC54i into Japanese Sakura (Cherry blossom). I already bought some highly figured Sakura blanks, and your "1619-4 Rebuild" will definitely provide valuable guidance! Can't wait to see your completed 1619-4!


Thanks! I've been enjoying your work on the 1117, too!

Yes, I'm very happy with the bridge color. The bare walnut color looked nice, but it made the guitar look plain. The stained wood looks much richer.

WRT balsa, it comes in several hardnesses. The lightest balsa is very soft, but some can get very dense and hard, almost as hard as spruce. I used a medium weight balsa that was hard enough to not be crushed by the clamping force, but soft enough to carve and sand.

I applied a moderate amount of force to the clamps --enough to dent the birch plywood clamping plates.

Interestingly, balsa has many varied uses in industry. End-grain balsa is used as the core for airliner bulkheads, such as cockpit, galley and restroom walls. End-grain balsa was also used as the core for the floor of every 1997-2004 Corvette. The balsa was sandwiched between two fiberglass panels.

Believe it not, pound for pound, balsa is stronger than steel.

Sakura is really pretty wood. I'll bet it would make a nice top on a guitar.
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SOBeach
Posted 2014-08-24 5:32 PM (#492594 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...


Joined:
April 2010
Posts: 823

Location: sitting at my computer

The 1619 sure looks great!  D'ya get them strings on it yet?

 

 

ps - that DY92 is neat, all Renaissance looking. But to really show it off, ya gotta play it backwards  ...I ain't that good!!  

 
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-24 7:35 PM (#492597 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA

You betcha! Got it strung up this afternoon. I was busy all morning and couldn't wait to get home to get the strings on and see how it sounds.

In short, I'm very, very happy with it. The top wood and brace pattern are everything I'd hoped. It's bright, loud and has terrific sustain on all six strings. Plus, it looks real neat, too!

Here's the finished product.

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seesquare
Posted 2014-08-24 7:44 PM (#492598 - in reply to #492597)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3598

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Gorgeous.
Nice work, Dan.
Just avoid drunken orgies with it.
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jay
Posted 2014-08-24 7:50 PM (#492600 - in reply to #492597)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1249

Location: Texas

Man! That is beautiful Dan. You should be very proud of what you created. Pretty doggone impressive! I wished I could play it to hear what she has to say. Thanks for sharing your journey with us. 

 

 

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2014-08-24 8:19 PM (#492601 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15651

Location: SoCal
Dan, I just realized that you live by me. Have we met?
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SOBeach
Posted 2014-08-24 8:39 PM (#492603 - in reply to #492600)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...


Joined:
April 2010
Posts: 823

Location: sitting at my computer

amosmoses - 2014-08-24 8:50 PM

Man! That is beautiful Dan. You should be very proud of what you created. Pretty doggone impressive! I wished I could play it to hear what she has to say. Thanks for sharing your journey with us. 

+1!!! 

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marenostrum
Posted 2014-08-25 8:39 AM (#492610 - in reply to #486472)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
August 2007
Posts: 1008

Location: Tuscany, Italy
Congratulation Dan !
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-25 9:06 AM (#492612 - in reply to #492598)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
seesquare - 2014-08-24 5:44 PM

Gorgeous.
Nice work, Dan.
Just avoid drunken orgies with it.


Oops! Too late.

Thanks!
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-25 9:07 AM (#492613 - in reply to #492600)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
amosmoses - 2014-08-24 5:50 PM

Man! That is beautiful Dan. You should be very proud of what you created. Pretty doggone impressive! I wished I could play it to hear what she has to say. Thanks for sharing your journey with us.



Thanks, Jay.
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-25 9:10 AM (#492614 - in reply to #492601)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
immoody - 2014-08-24 6:19 PM

Dan, I just realized that you live by me. Have we met?


Hi Paul,

Yes, we have. My wife and I met up with you and the guitar gang at the Trabuco Canyon General Store, either last summer or the one before. I played your OFC Slothead and led the gang in "Keep on The Sunny Side".

It was a fun night. Are you guys still playing at the General Store on Friday nights?

Dan
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-25 9:12 AM (#492615 - in reply to #492603)
Subject: RE: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
SOBeach - 2014-08-24 6:39 PM

+1!!! 



Thanks, Jeffrey. :D
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DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-25 9:18 AM (#492616 - in reply to #492610)
Subject: Re: 1619-4 Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2303

Location: Lake Forest, CA
maremagnum - 2014-08-25 6:39 AM

Congratulation Dan !


Thanks. I'm very happy with how it turned out and I am looking forward to my next project. I'm definitely using the same style braces and brace pattern. It makes the guitar really come alive.
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