The Ovation Fan Club
The Ovation Fan Club
Forum Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Calendars | Albums | Language
Your are viewing as a Guest. ( logon | register )

Random quote: "Ovation Guitars really don't get the respect they deserve!" - Alex Pepiak



Jump to page : 1234
Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page]
The definitive Preacher thread?

View previous thread :: View next thread
   Members Forums -> Ovation Electric GuitarsMessage format
 
MWoody
Posted 2013-09-20 9:41 AM (#475199 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13929

Location: Upper Left USA

You could learn from the Pacific Rim Manufacturers and buy a few guitars, disassemble them, reverse engineer and provide us with the answers.

Have you contacted the builders at Eastwood? They've made some interesting clones.

Here's one of my frustrations. The history/geneology of Fender and Gibson solidbody guitars and their hardware is mapped out in extreme detail. There is a shrine somewhere, aka Leo Fender's desk the way it was when he departed. There are Guitar enthusiasts fighting over pickups made by Seth Lover on a Wednesday sounding better than one he wrapped on a Monday...

Those people have issues...

The detail is there because of the populist atmosphere surrounding Gibson and Fender guitars.

I am envious.

There was an incredible amount of innovation and five times the technological advancement taking place at Ovation. They made a better Peavey than Peavey...

Gibson couldn't even make a White guitar that looked White on TV.

Please remember us in your footnotes when you publish.



Edited by MWoody 2013-09-20 9:53 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 10:40 AM (#475206 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

MWoody
LOL, you have a remarkable acumen for the way i think. Yes, I agree, undue fanfare and sycophancy abounds but that is the product of an ignorant populace and a good psychological understanding of that market. What I like about Ovation is the no nonsense culture of its engineering and some of the people posting on this site. When I was learning how to play, there were only a handful of good female guitarists and only three bands I knew of where females were prominent (Heart, Vixxen and The Runaways) but my ear was always better than average and I remember the gear head type of guitarists favoring O's. I was friends with many of them and played some of their instruments (...ahem...). Why Ovation solid bodies never attained the cult status of their peers is something I am researching. If you have a name at Eastwood, PM it to me.

numbfingers
My calculation is that the UKII pickup had between 8,000-9,500 feet of wire! Depending on the insulation used, the tightness of the wind and the height of the bobbin, am I wrong to assume 2x10K winds are possible?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 12:18 PM (#475211 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1085

Location: NW Washington State
If you Google HUMBUCKER 43 TURNS you'll get an idea of what's possible.

If I were buying my first solidbody, I'd get the Viper 'zilla is offering in the for sale section.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-20 1:59 PM (#475219 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

If there were no difference between the Preacher pickups why were two part number pairs assigned (100/200B and 110/210C)? 
I'm not sure where/what the model numbers are...  they came in Gold vs Chrome ?  Also there are distinct bridge and neck pickups.  The spacing is different.  If 3 pickups are used, I'm curious which one they used for the middle pickup.  Of course..  Ovation was infamous for just changing the model numbers of things mid-stream for whatever reason. 

Your marketing slant logic is plausible, should we assume the UKII humbuckers were also wound 5k per magnet rail? 
No Idea...  I go by measuring resistance... they either work or they don't.. I either like their sound or I don't.

The number of pickup leads that are accessible dictates the wiring configuration and grounding scheme options as well as the sonic result;
Well I would use the terms "indicates the wiring configuration choices to some extent"  Wiring can always be changed, a pickups wiring can be replaced and/or modified.

does anyone here believe this information has no significance? 
Regarding pickups, I generally go for guitars which I like the pickups.  I don't like the Preacher pickups.  If I liked the rest of the guitar for some reason, I would change the pickups accordingly so...  that's the significance for me. 

When I asked how the pickup cavity was routed, I was trying to gain insight into the tools and bits used. This information will help determine if the third cavity on the Preacher was done at the factory.
The easiest way to 99% check is if it matches the others.  There never was a 3-pickup preacher and like everything else... there are probably different versions, but the  "match the cuts" technigue will help you know if it's after market or not.  FWIW, at a certain point ALL Viper's had "viper III" bodies.  It was just easier to make one body and apply the correct pickguard for the model... Viper or Viper III.  It's been awhile since I have seen a Preacher under the hood, but I believe it's the same routing as a viper.  Not positive on this. 

The same goes for the cavity dimensions and its variance. Anyone working there at the time should know this. I suppose anyone with detailed pictures of the Viper III under the pickguard would be helpful too. 
I think overall shape would be your guide.  As far as variance, again, I would guess they used a template and are all pretty close.  I doubt they checked each cavity once the template was being used.  The template was likely large enough to afford minor variance as you call it, but I have no idea if they tracked it.

When I asked about how the guitars shipped, I was trying to determine the accessories like tools, keys, cables, manuals, etc.
In general a user manual, a key for the case and warrantee card.  Models that could go stereo came with a cord. 

 

 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
stonebobbo
Posted 2013-09-20 6:53 PM (#475235 - in reply to #475192)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8302

Location: California

mileskb - 2013-09-20 12:19 AM

 

Are the urelite necks favored and if yes, why so? 
Never saw a Urelite neck, ever. 

 

 

You are, of course, referring to the electric guitars.  My USA Ultra acoustic electric from 1983 has a Urelite neck.

 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 7:29 PM (#475238 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Mr.Ovation
If all those humbuckers were made the same way with the only difference the color, why not use the same original part number and suffix a 'G' for gold (ie: 700100G/700200G). Was there some part binning going on back then?

Earlier in this thread, numbfingers measured a UKII blade pickup @20KO, does anyone reading have a measure of the Preacher pup?

Yes, you can modify a pickup but seldom conveniently and or without risk of damage.

Your opinion of the Preacher humbuckers jibes with others here, what do you find objectionable or lacking when compared to the Viper singles?

If the Preacher had triple routing at the factory I suggest the following:
1. Both Preacher and Viper bodies may have been cut on the same assembly but for that to be viable, both bodies would have had a similar mounting (presumably aligned at the neck joint for both but there would have been an increased cost in bit wear).
2. The above scenario is more likely if those cavities were cut simultaneously instead of step and repeat.
3. If the later Preachers had three cavities cut, the pickguard would have been probably done by hand.
4. It makes sense that Ovation would have accommodated these kinds of variations given the tepid demand for its straight production units.
What would the premium charge be for a custom order like this and who would have okayed it?
How were the Viper pickups reviewed back then compared to the Preacher humbuckers?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 8:39 PM (#475242 - in reply to #475235)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1085

Location: NW Washington State
stonebobbo - 2013-09-20 6:53 PM
You are, of course, referring to the electric guitars.  My USA Ultra acoustic electric from 1983 has a Urelite neck.


Bobbo, I'm concerned about your excessive attention to detail and antisocial behavior. I'd guess that you could have Asperger's syndrome, although that has been discounted in the latest DSM-5. Or perhaps late-onset OCD?

Edited by numbfingers 2013-09-20 8:42 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 8:55 PM (#475244 - in reply to #475238)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1085

Location: NW Washington State
gmaslin - 2013-09-20 7:29 PM

Earlier in this thread, numbfingers measured a UKII blade pickup @20KO, does anyone reading have a measure of the Preacher pup?

Yes, you can modify a pickup but seldom conveniently and or without risk of damage.


Careful reading will show that I measured a Deacon pickup: "The DC resistance of a Deacon mini-humbucker from my parts box is approximately 20K. "

It's likely that the Preacher pickup is similar.

Ovation pickups are particularly hard to modify or repair because they are often potted with some space-age silicone goo.

The Preacher Deluxe and UKII have serial/parallel switches per pickup, so there must be enough leads for any reasonable wiring scheme.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-20 9:04 PM (#475246 - in reply to #475238)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

If all those humbuckers were made the same way with the only difference the color, why not use the same original part number and suffix a 'G' for gold (ie: 700100G/700200G).
You'd have to ask them. I'm just say'n... you mentioned two numbers. There were at least two different pickups (neck and bridge) which I would think would be four numbers. There may have been slight changes over time, different sources, who knows... Maybe the number of leads... again.. don't know.. Don't know who would know or who would remember if they did know.

Was there some part binning going on back then? 
Again... who knows...


If the Preacher had triple routing at the factory I suggest the following: 
That's a BIG assumption right there as there never was a 3-pickup Preacher model.


1. Both Preacher and Viper bodies may have been cut on the same assembly but for that to be viable, both bodies would have had a similar mounting (presumably aligned at the neck joint for both but there would have been an increased cost in bit wear).
Not sure what the point is.  There was no Preacher III... There was a Viper III and at nearing the end of the life of these models they made one body and either put a Viper or Viper III Pickguard on it.

2. The above scenario is more likely if those cavities were cut simultaneously instead of step and repeat. 
I do not agree 

3. If the later Preachers had three cavities cut, the pickguard would have been probably done by hand.

The Preachers were only cut for two pickups. There never was a Preacher III model.
There was never a Preacher III model. 

How were the Viper pickups reviewed back then compared to the Preacher humbuckers?
To my knowledge, back then as of now... they were viewed the same.  I am from "back then"..  The Deacon and Preacher Deluxe sounded great... I needed more flexibility, so I bought a Viper.. 

 

What is the info you are looking for.  If you could sum up all of your posts into ONE question, what is it you are trying to find out?  

To shortcut this a bit... If you are trying to determine if this was in fact made at the factory, the ONLY way you will EVER find that out is likely if the person who made it remembers doing so.  There is LITTLE TO NOTHING on the guitar to reveal this... HOWEVER...  There are some tell-tales that you havnen't asked that would lead you in the direction.  Basically while you have asked a lot of interesting questions, they are about things that are inconclusive about the line.  I must admit that you have asked questions that NO ONE including myself has EVER asked in at least 12 years (since this group started).

In no particular order if someone signed it under the bridge or put initials somewhere in it would be a tell.  If the 3rd pickup cavity has any finish/sealer will be a big tell showing if the route was added later, but not definitive as someone could have bought a guitar and later wanted it routed... but... if it is bare wood, that is likely not the workmanship at the factory.

Another big tell is the pickguard material.  It was somewhat unique and the edges finished like an Ovation solid body pickguard.  Hard to explain... but the number of layers and angle of the edge...  unique to Ovation as far as I know.  The shape would likely be one of the standard shapes but modified and properly finished.

There are other tells... but until we see some pictures, I think you have expired my knowledge base. 

 

 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 9:13 PM (#475247 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

numbfingers
Noted. I don't know why I recalled it as a UKII, you also mentioned that the resistance cannot be measured separately for each coil, how did Ovation split the humbuckers from what is presumably a continuous wind? I imagine the Viper pickups had a similar resistance value but because it was around one coil instead of two, much more phase coherent eddy action was likely responsible for the bigger sound. Has anyone tried playing with a tone cap for those humbuckers?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 9:37 PM (#475248 - in reply to #475247)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1085

Location: NW Washington State
No humbucker is a continuous wind, there are two coils. Easy to add leads between the coils but not always done.

I'd guess that only Bill Bartolini and Bill Lawrence were thinking about eddy currents back in those days. But I wish I had "coherent eddy action".

Top of the page Bottom of the page
gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 10:16 PM (#475249 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

numbfingers
No humbucker is a continuous wind, there are two coils. Easy to add leads between the coils but not always done.
What's wrong with winding it in an 'S' pattern or consecutively? You would still end up with two coils and it would explain the high resistance as well as the reason you couldn't measure them separately, no? Is that Deacon pickup from the 110/210C or 100/200B set?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 12:09 AM (#475251 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

Just out of curiosity... and excuse me if I've missed it... but where did you come up with these "pickup model numbers" of "110/210C and 100/200B?" 

700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Preacher Deluxe 12-string.
700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Preacher.
700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Deacon.
700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Breadwinner (after they dropped the Toroidal pickups).
700100-x-17 = Neck 700200-x-17=bridge for the Preacher Deluxe.

These are from the assembly guides for these guitars and their associated parts lists.

While initially I thought these number represented the pickup "assembly" as they are listed in the parts list and diagrams, these 700X00-X-XX numbers are also referenced on some of the the schematics as well. On other schematics they are just referenced by "bridge pickup" or "neck pickup." What I actually find interesting is that the only different number on any of the parts lists regarding these pickups is the ones for the Preacher Deluxe 12-String. My guess is that the 12-String may have a slightly different spacing.   Maybe that's the difference from whereever you found the model numbers... one is the "standard" humbucker and the other is the 12-string spacing.   I have noticed the parts list doesn't even deliniate between gold and chrome, only the marketing references that.

 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-21 12:56 AM (#475252 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1085

Location: NW Washington State
Here's a pickup patent: http://ovationtribute.com/Ovation_Guitars_Patents/Ovation_1975_Brea...

Are the assembly guides and parts lists somewhere on Jerome's site?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 2:23 AM (#475253 - in reply to #475252)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
numbfingers - 2013-09-20 10:56 PM
Are the assembly guides and parts lists somewhere on Jerome's site?


I don't think so. I would think there was more than one copy, but I have only seen the one copy I have. It is basically cut-away views with all the parts and components identified.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-21 3:07 AM (#475254 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Credit goes to numbfingers for introducing me to the part numbers. His comments about the winding were also correct; the patent describes how it was done. I am reminded of my late father who would often tell me, "never leave a room unless you're the smartest person in it". You guys really are great!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 11:56 AM (#475261 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
So I'll throw this out there..

I think it's interesting that with all the information in this thread, and I'm not being sarcastic, we no nothing important about this guitar like where it was made, when it was made and by whom or for whom it was made. None of the technical info is reliable enough for that.

In no particular order if someone signed it under the bridge or put initials somewhere in it would be a tell. If the 3rd pickup cavity has any finish/sealer will be a big tell showing if the route was added later, but not definitive as someone could have bought a guitar and later wanted it routed... but... if it is bare wood, that is likely not the workmanship at the factory.

Another big tell is the pickguard material. It was somewhat unique and the edges finished like an Ovation solid body pickguard. Hard to explain... but the number of layers and angle of the edge... unique to Ovation as far as I know. The shape would likely be one of the standard shapes but modified and properly finished.

The bridge style is a tell, but not by itself.

Also another note on pickups... they are described as "two high-output humbucking double-coil pickups each with 12 individual 3/16" alnico magnets wired in both series with 10,000 winds per coil."
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-21 1:12 PM (#475262 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10545

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
I still want to see a photo of the damn guitar.


Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 1:53 PM (#475264 - in reply to #475262)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
arthurseery - 2013-09-21 11:12 AM

I still want to see a photo of the damn guitar.




+1 - Well stated... !!!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-21 3:36 PM (#475268 - in reply to #475199)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Noted, but you're no more frustrated about this than I am. I have asked the seller to remove the pickguard and he is reluctant to do so for fear of 'messing it up'. I don't know what to do. On the one hand, I am really attracted to the idea of a one off Preacher but don't want my first purchase to be a bust. I tried to post the pics he did send but they are too big? Whatever, I guess if I'm serious I have to go see the thing in person and take my own pics. How do you guys spend so much time here without it effecting the rest of your lives. I'm so behind on my chores just from the few days I'm been on this forum that I may need to take a few days break to catch up.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-21 6:02 PM (#475270 - in reply to #475268)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10545

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
gmaslin - 2013-09-21 1:36 PM

I have asked the seller to remove the pickguard and he is reluctant to do so for fear of 'messing it up'.

I wouldn't take my guitar apart for you either.
You gotta un-string it... Undo all those screws... take photos...
Then you may not buy it. And you could mess something up. I agree.

gmaslin - 2013-09-21 1:36 PM

How do you guys spend so much time here without it effecting the rest of your lives.
I have No Life.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Puppetman
Posted 2013-09-21 6:05 PM (#475271 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
August 2011
Posts: 187

Location: Florence,SC
Before removing the pickguard, it is best to loosen the strings and neck enough to tilt it back or, if possible, remove the neck totally. The fingerboard extends over the pickguard and the guard can be easily cracked trying to pull it from under the fingerboard. The pickup mounting screws are extremely long, restricting the pickguard's movement.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Puppetman
Posted 2013-09-21 6:06 PM (#475272 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
August 2011
Posts: 187

Location: Florence,SC
Arthur, you beat me to it!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-22 12:42 AM (#475275 - in reply to #475271)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Puppetman - 2013-09-21 4:05 PM

Before removing the pickguard, it is best to loosen the strings and neck enough to tilt it back or, if possible, remove the neck totally. The fingerboard extends over the pickguard and the guard can be easily cracked trying to pull it from under the fingerboard. The pickup mounting screws are extremely long, restricting the pickguard's movement.


It's also helpful to raise the pickups as high was possible on their screws.

Actually getting a picture of the pickguard edge and the overall pickguard may be helpful.

Also, rather than lifting the pickguard, maybe just lifting the bridge. Loosen strings and it just lifts up or un-hooks depending on the bridge which is also a tell. There may be something written in the bridge cavity.

However.. bottom line... It's a Preacher with 3 pickups. Either you want it or you don't. While looking under the hood may give you more info... it likely won't. Does it really matter if it was done at the factory or by someone in their garage? It doesn't change the value, nor the playability, or anything else.

Just trying to help you. The chance of you ever knowing the "exact" history of a one-off guitar from Ovation is so rare it's not even worth considering. Not even remotely likely unless it's something really special. A Preacher, or any other normal model with an added pickup, doesn't fall into the category of notable.. note worthy maybe... but that's about it. A nice anecdote.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
TJR
Posted 2013-09-22 8:12 PM (#475287 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 279

Location: Maine

Preacher Deluxe...on the CNC router circa 1978(based on film negative /slide dates)

 





Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1 2 3 4
Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

This message board and website is not sponsored or affiliated with Ovation® Guitars in any way.
Registered to: The Ovation Fanclubâ„¢ Copyright (c) 2001
free counters
(Delete all cookies set by this site)