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Location: New South Wales, Australia | Just spent an hour or so "jamming with a young friend. He's the drummer in our band (20 years old) but he's starting to learn a bit of guitar.
He picks things up quickly and when we jam he will be all over the place while I'm sticking with my classic 1-6-4-5 formula :rolleyes: I never know where he's gonna go so the jam becomes totally disorganised.
Does this mean he has more imagination than me or just has no idea what to play...or is my tired and structured method the way to go or should I "open my mind" a bit more and just play whatever? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | well, there's imagination and there's music.... sometimes they coincide, and sometimes you must kill the drummer....
If he sounds musical to you... you know what you gotta do. |
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Location: Newington, CT | GREAT topic! I'll be copying and pasting this post into the Connecticut / Northeast OFC'ers thread, because it brings up an extremely interesting guestion: if you have your druthers what is your style?
There may be several ways to express this question. Another way: toward what style do you gravitate if left alone for a while to play by yourself? Or: Do you have a primary style? A favorite style? A favorite genre?
If you wish to skip all the self-absorbed introspection between here and my answers to those questions, please feel free to go to the bottom of this long screed right now.
By way of background, I came from a rock 'n roll background. But that was only because you had to be that way to find anyone to play with when I was starting out (late '70's). Our foundation was a guy who knew a bit about several songs on an old nylon string guitar.
From that we started your basic garage band. We were ok...ok enough to play parties and the occasional school dance. However, that was not REALLY what I wanted to do, so I continued to practice and practice and practice "on the side," as I continued to play wih the band.
What emerged from all this side practice was a VERY arrhythmic kind of thing. It's a kind of a Spanish-flamenco, vaguely jazz-like sounding thing that instead of being rhythmic sort of wraps itself around the rhythm with notes that -- if I'm having a "good night" -- can sound really nice.
If, however, I'm not as inspired as I could be, or the fingers are just not doing what I tell them to, or my imagination fails me, it rarely gets beyond hum-drum...though I can drag myself out of the blahs from time-to-time.
Well, as you can imagine, the garage bands usually dissipate like dried leaves in the autumn wind. So did ours, and I was left with this style that was more natural to me but severely constrained the number of people I could play with.
Everyone kept asking me "what songs I knew." When I answered that I really didn't know "songs" per se, and that I kind of made it up as I went along, the uncharitable among them concluded: "doesn't play well with others."
Long story short: I'm at a point where I guess my most congenial style would produce "songs," if such they could be called, like "Jam in D Minor." And it would typically consist of a "conversation" between instruments (or instrumentalists) who improvise in the key. They would go on for varying times as the instrumentalist(s) had more or less to "say" depending on the night.
And, you can add as much or as little "structure" to it as you like. It DOES adapt well, and one CAN play well with others, if all the instrumentalists are of a similar temperament. However, I get the impression (I hope erroneously), that few are of this temperament. Most seem to want to play "songs."
I understand this inclination: if everyone knows a song, it serves as a framework for just starting off and making music. Songs can provide the framework for improvisation as well. I understand that also. But, it does seem limiting somewhat.
I have had some tell me that I am really good, and that they would go anywhere I was playing as a one-man show. In other words, I have a bunch of intros to a stretch of improvisation that could be called "songs," and others have liked them quite a bit. And, those who have liked my playing have enjoyed it in the context of the "one-man show." All this doesn't help dodge the tag: "Doesn't play well with others." I hope that's simply a tag used by those who're choosing not to use their imagination to envision musical arrhythmia as a good thing.
Anyway, with all that, are there others out there like this? I know that there are some (many?) of you who are likely WAY overly modest about your own skills. In conversation with some of you, you have indicated that you "can play just about anything placed in front of you." Not being *formally* musically schooled, I am ignorant of your abilities just to make it up as you go.
A friend at work is a wonderful violist, but cannot improvise to save her life. More: I have no idea to how many of you the style I am describing is congenial. Or, rather does it seem sporadic, disorganized and/or chaotic?
Anyway...to keep this screed to what you see above...here are my answers to the above questions:
Description of myself as a guitarist:
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Primary Style:
* flat picker
* arrhythmic
* nearly 100% improvisation
* Spanish-flamenco sounding
Style:
* very jam session-oriented, where people just start playing and others join in as they like.
* Like a "musical conversation" that can take many different twists and turns.
* "bad is good," because it means that you have been stretched.
Favorite Genre:
* "free jazz" (truly for lack of a better term) |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by Jeff W.:
If he sounds musical to you... you know what you gotta do. Kill the competition? |
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Location: Newington, CT | Regarding the above -- here's an example: Solo Jam Session in E Minor
Should show you what I mean... |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Drummers make great guitar players.. ;) |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I'm the opposite of Alan--I really don't play well, or at all, with others. I can strum chords and sing, but the stuff I like to play is memorized fingerstyle stuff. I learned by memorizing songs note for note and I've never learned enough of the theory to improvise. I tried once playing and singing The Wedding Song at an anniversary celebration. I have done it many times solo, but when my brother and his family, all of whom can improvise totally, they threw me off. I had to get them to stop playing. The basic stuff I'm fine, but I need to learn more theory before I can "improvise". |
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Location: New South Wales, Australia | I can improvise to a point. Pentatonic stuff I can do all day without really thinking about it...but it does get boring after a while. But if someone I'm playing with plays A, A#, B, C and then C# along with an F# minor..I've got no idea, cause to me, there's no pattern to things and I have no idea where it's going next. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Mark,
Good points, many of which apply to me.
One thing I've learned at the Jams is that almost everyone 'jamming' has their own strum pattern for any particular song. When I start to concentrate on someone's pattern, I lose my 'place' in the song.
Instead of messing up the song for everybody, I'll softly start experimenting trying to fill in the transitions and play over the melody. That's kinda neat, but the songs usually don't last long enough for me to remember my pattern.
Then when it's all lover, I go back to my ol' bad habits.  |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | two ears, one mouth. take the hint.
Unfortunately, the analogy breaks down for musicians: two ears, two hands. It's even worse for singers because their instrument IS their mouth and it's hard to hear the musicians when you're trying to be heard BY them!!!!
But the principle is still correct. Playing with others requires more listening than playing.
As in any other form of communication, it helps a lot if you all speak the same language. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | ......ah, mmmmmm
I guess it's not actually important enough to say twice after all.... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I do not mean this as a criticism, merely an observation. It seems like most of the NW gatherings are primarily full of electric guys, maybe since Miles is the ultimate Ovation electric guy, while your SE jams seem to be populated with acoustics. I probably fit better with the latter, if anywhere. Maybe it's a cultural/geographical thing. Maybe it's an age thing. Maybe I just don't fit. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | "Maybe it's a cultural/geographical thing...Maybe I just don't fit"
Have you considered the 7th Planet from the Sun? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Not seriously. Have you examined yours? |
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Location: New South Wales, Australia | Originally posted by fillhixx:
But the principle is still correct. Playing with others requires more listening than playing.
GREAT point fillhixx. Listening is a learned skill I think, and like your guitar, it requires practise.
I've been playing almost 30 years now and listening is something I've only discovered in the past two years since I've been playing with other people. Sometimess I find it easy but most of the time I have to work at it. Maybe with a few more years practise it will come more naturally to me. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
Not seriously. Have you examined yours? ABSOLUTELY! When Pluto went into foreclosure, I immediately refinanced. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Listening is an important skill if your Jamming or just playing by yourself I think. It certainly is a skill in a band.
Funny as Al and I were just talking about this on the phone.. I guess I really learned to play for the most part by playing with either recorded music or other musicians, trying to fit notes and chords in that sounded right, that added something.
I'm having a real hard time of it now because I really really don't like playing by myself, there's no inspiration, and from lack of practice I suck and can't stand to listen to it.
But I digress... getting a Rhythm section to lay a steady beat is tough enough, but if everyone's not on the page, it's not really a jam.
While I love Yes, ELP, Zep, etc... "jamming" most of their tunes isn't really an option. You either know them, or you don't. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Classically trained vs. GarageBand hopeful ...
Who's most musical? |
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Location: New South Wales, Australia | That could be another thread in itself, Jeff.
The GarageBand hopeful is not as bound by the precision and attention to detail (theory?) that a classical musician requires. But as to who's most musical....depends on the musician |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | By using a looper, you can lay down your rhythm track or tracks, maybe a melody track, then noddle over it as long as you like. This really helps to build up your improvisational skills. Then if you need to play it live with a band, you don't have to perfectly memorize your lead lines, but rather, just be sufficiently familiar with the chord structure to adlib it as you go. This is one of the reasons why it is particularly satisfying to play blues. The rhythm tracks are all pretty basic, so once you know the pattern and key, you're off an running.
One other thing that is very important when playing with others is to be sensitive and know when to back off and play lightly (which, for guitar accompaniment, is most of the time), thereby allowing other instruments or the vocals to stand out. |
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Location: Reisterstown, Maryland | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
I'm the opposite of Alan--I really don't play well, or at all, with others. I can strum chords and sing, but the stuff I like to play is memorized fingerstyle stuff. I learned by memorizing songs note for note and I've never learned enough of the theory to improvise. I tried once playing and singing The Wedding Song at an anniversary celebration. I have done it many times solo, but when my brother and his family, all of whom can improvise totally, they threw me off. I had to get them to stop playing. The basic stuff I'm fine, but I need to learn more theory before I can "improvise". I'm like you, Mark. But I think theory has something to do with math, and I don't do well in math and theory is just way over my head.
BTW, hi everybody, I'm new here |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Howdy "neighbor". |
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Location: Utah | ladylaw, welcome aboard! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | My last "jam" was with Norseman in Phoenix. We were hoping to meet at Dave's so we could have an overabundance of guitars, but Dave made sure he was out of town and didn't leave the key under the mat. Norse only had one guitar, so we handed it back and forth. We actually knew a bunch of the same songs, or more accurately, he knew a bunch of the songs that I knew, but we played slightly different versions. It might have worked out well if we had 2 guitars, or we might have been totally out of sync. |
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Hi, Ladylaw;
Welcome aboard--you'll have to give us an idea of which O's you have, so we can all "oooh" and "aaah." ;)
I very rarely play out solo; I'm usually paired up with either a really great pianist, a bunch of guys playing bluegrass, and maybe a small team for women's retreat weekends. The advice to "listen" is really right on; the musicians that have been hardest for me to jam or perform with are the ones who are pretty much oblivious to what everyone else is doing around them (and I've had that happen with vocalists, too, both with pitch issues or not hearing the surrounding harmonies.) In those cases, you do wish the jam could be imaginary!!
--Karen |
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imaginary jam?
