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Location: Chicago | Dumb question from "music geek" who wishes he were "equipment/electronics" geek:
How do "gain stages" work?
I use a simple series: Ovation -> Pedal with volume and tone knobs -> Bose PA with volume and EQ
How do I optimize to get the fullest, most natural tone? Are there any obvious "dos" and "don'ts"? I notice that my plugged-in tone is inconsistent... |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I believe the term is "unity gain" or something similar, and one of the pros, like Temp, can explain it. |
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Location: Orange County, California | Why do you need the pedal? does it provided any "gain" in output volume over what the guitar puts out directly to the Bose?
Because my guitar has an EQ, volume and "Low Z" XLR connection, I have little or no need for addition gain or buffering.
If you can set your pedal to take a very low volume setting from the guitar (say 9 o'clock) and "turn up" the pedal to drive the input of the PA with LESS GAIN, you'd have more DYNAMIC HEADROOM, i.e. volume without distortion (did I get this right Temp?).
That would be an example of using a "gain stage" as a buffer or impedance matching device to improve overall tone. |
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Location: Chicago | Clarification: I use a Boss Acoustic pedal for reverb (and chorus, occasionally): It has gain, tone controls as well as a notch filter.
The BOSE we have is the L1 with no effects: just EQ and basic volume.
My Legend and Adamas are fitted with the Fishman PreFix Pro pickups: VERY strong signal there. |
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Location: Scotland | Put simply a "gain stage" is a point in the signal chain where signal amplitude may be boosted (or in some cases attenuated) It is important that each stage has sufficient gain to avoid system noise and be able to drive the rest of the chain efficiently, with enough clean headroom to avoid clipping (distortion). This is why professional equipment has level meters and why you need to learn how to use them. Where meters are present they should read as close to zero dB (unity) at all times for every piece of equipment in the chain. In analog kit a meter reading of 3 to 6dB over zero is acceptable. Digital should always be close as to zero as you can get, but never over.
The danger is always stacking preamp upon preamp upon preamp and getting it wrong. EG: a guitar with an onboard preamp, into an acoustic processor or outboard pre, then into an acoustic amp, then into a mixer. Each gain stage here needs to be set correctly or you can get into a world of hurt. I posted something about this on the Ning after Amelia last year. Check it out. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Gregg ,
do I understand correctly that ye` re not using the appropriate mixer ( T1 ToneMatch ) ?
If so , try and get that one , it makes the L1 the performer that it`s supposed t` be , I find the L1 a bit of an oddity , but it comes in it`s stride with the T1.
V |
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Location: Chicago | Thanks, Paul.
*************
Each gain stage here needs to be set correctly
*************
Is there a "dummy's version" of this? I know that my guitar preamp should not be up to high. The intermediate pedal (between guitar and L1) is probably the wild card... |
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Location: Chicago | Wow, never heard of the T1, Vic. A bit pricey, tho... |
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Location: Scotland | Misinformation, again. Gregg owns a Bose L1 model 1 which works perfectly as a stand-alone unit without the T1. The T1 was introduced specificaly for the L1 model 2, to address issues about the position of the controls and lack of effects such as reverb. The T1 is perfectly compatible with the original L1, but as it introduces further gain stages you still need to understand the concept of gain or you'll be just as screwed. The T1 is just a digital mixer and is no different to introducing any device with gain stages (such as an analog mixer) it just happens to have a bunch of Bose Tonematch presets, which in my experience are pretty damn usesless. I've been using a T1 for a while and downloaded all the relavant presets for my needs. In fairness the Baggs M1 Active presets are pretty good, but I the found Ovation and Takamine presets to be horrible. I love the T1 and use it constantly, but it's not a magic cure-all, it's just a mixer with a bunch of onboard tricks, and it requires at least basic sound-engineering skills to get the best from it. |
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Location: Chicago | I'm not big on effects (hence a single pedal). I'm listening to playback from a gig and am thinking about plugged-in tone. Unplugged, I like, plugged, less so (it's uniform across axes).
As an "amp" the L1 model 1 is pretty damn good for small venues. |
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Location: Chicago | BTW: checked the ning link on "Home Recording" but must have missed the post on gain stages... |
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Location: Scotland | Here |
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Location: Chicago | Thanks, Paul. Informative and clear! |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Having been involved with radio-technique for over 4 decades , I will not bicker with a layman....frankly, I could n`t give a damn. |
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Location: Scotland | Thanks, Vic. Informative and clear! |
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Location: SoCal | I'd bicker with Temp on politics and religion (but not on the board), but Vic, even I recognize his level of expertise in this area (very very high). Don't go a way in a snit, just....... |
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Location: Michigan | :p i cant stand it anymore..
am i the only one who is not allowed a caps key on their computer.
why is the ofc calling me out on this one.
i want my caps lock key returned to me..... right now... now...now...
and that ...now... was yelling it ...
:confused: GWB |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by guitarwannabee:
:confused: GWB Oh, come on now... GWB or gwb?  |
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Location: Chicago | Hey, I started this thread and I sez: be nice. |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | gwb, the caps lock nazis are monitoring the situation. (Aren't we Stephen!)
It will be addressed if it continues.
I was hoping the 'layman' snipe would've generated a bit of action, but Temp, ever the gentleman, let it slide. Oh well...
Moody, you crack me up. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I believe I address GWB's concerns in another thread. Besides inconsistency is not a crime but consistently committing the crime is.
Play nice Greg and kill the thread caps. You can read GWB's latest poll to see how the majority thinks. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Back to the topic...
I think that the obvious difference in this subject of gain can be compared to the discussions twix wood gits vs. bowl backs.
Vic, as an electronic engineer versus Paul's performing/practical experience, have obviously practical biases.
Instrumentation specs versus an individual's perception can be miles apart.
So please, let's continue this discussion at whatever technical/personal level we can. Don't leave us in an 'ego' cloud.
Thanx... |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by 2ifbyC:
Back to the topic...
I think that the obvious difference in this subject of gain can be compared to the discussions twix wood gits vs. bowl backs.
No it can't. When it comes to the technical requirements of sound engineering it's not a matter of opinion. As I posted on the Ning, understanding the concept of gain structure is the single most important aspect of getting a good sound. You either get it right or wrong. That's the only bias.
I based the posts about the Bose L1/T1 on the fact that I've owned this equipment for several years (via a preferential Professional user deal, directly from Bose) and use it to perform, for money, 2 to 3 times each week. So I kinda know what I'm talking about with this stuff.
As for my practical/performing experience, that is only part of it. For several years I taught studio production and acoustic design to post-grad level, and currently teach sound engineering, music business and music theory at a local college. So my acedemic qualification are hardly in question. The information I offered to Gregg's question on gain stages was therefore not my opinion, but acually based not only on experience but also on technical knowledge gained from years of study.
If someone posted say that Ovation are now no longer made it the USA, others would jump in and put them right. When someone posted the The Bose L1 system requires a T1 to make it work properly I simply pointed out that this was incorrect. They was no "Ego" involved on my part. |
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Location: Utah | OK, here's my view of gain stages. Plug it in, turn it on. If there is hiss, something's not right. If the guitar sounds distorted when it should be clean, something's not right.
Guitars and their accessories are designed to work together. Same with keyboards or mics. So, plug the mic into an xlr cable and plug that into a mic input on the amp/pa. Plug the guitar into guitar pedals and plug those into instrument inputs. If using a line-out, plug it into a line-in.
Meters? Yeah they provide information. Don't want to see much red from blinking LED meters. If the meter isn't coming up off of the zero peg, it isn't working hard enough.
The acoustics of the venue and other problems are much bigger factors in a bad sound. Besides my playing, there is a failure to be properly in tune, EQ, playing dynamics, the house PA, patrons talking, crappy mics placed in front of the amps, large glass windows next to the stage, and the drunks heckling or making passes.
I am certainly not against knowing how to properly set up one's equipment. The point is that, except when recording or the rare demand for the highest fidelity live sound, it is good enough if you don't hear hiss and if things don't sound distorted. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | This is how I set my pedals (all two of them).
First, I plug the guitar in and put the volume and tone controls at full and then plug into the amp and get to playing volume, adjusting only the amp volume, tone, reverb and gain. Once satisfied that sounds good, I plug in pedal one, a tuner, and there's no effect on tone. Then I plug in pedal two, a tube screamer clone. Adjust for the tone and gain I like, and the get the volume to playing volume. Now I can control the volume, tone, gain (distortion) with my guitar. |
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GAIN STAGES
