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Location: Snåsa, Norway | I've just recently started to dig into the subject of acoustic guitars, having played my custom legend and being content with that. For the last year I've tried to read me up both on music theory and on guitars. It's my impression that the "ideal acoustic" is an all solid wood guitar, preferably hand made. It seems to be a bit like a back to nature movement. I also have a feeling that Ovations were a great thing some 30 years ago, but are more out of fashion today. An example would be the Parker acoustics, that in material choice and design in many ways are retro, but electronically seems to be up to date. I also figure that a lot of the luthiers who make handmade guitars have come up in the last 20 years. This seems to me like a lowtech fashion, and part of a post- or antiindustrial spirit in the society. From this point of wiew, the main problem with the Ovation is the plastic bowl and "plastic sound", which will disqualify it as a true acoustic in the first place. I read a rewiew of a Rainsong in Acoustic Guitar, where the author stated that maybe the choice of material in a guitar is not as important for the sound that we might like to think, it's more about the overall construction. Are there any others round who share my opinion, or am I completely wrong and confused? |
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Location: PDX | Well, you confused me. I'm not sure what you're asking here.
But i will comment on a couple of things:
he main problem with the Ovation is the plastic bowl and "plastic sound", which will disqualify it as a true acoustic in the first place.
Not acoustic? Huh? What is it then? Of course it's acoustic. Hollow body, sound board, strings, vibrations, displaced air, etc. Next you'll say it's not a guitar?
the author stated that maybe the choice of material in a guitar is not as important for the sound that we might like to think, it's more about the overall construction.
Absolutely. Kaman proved it. I know of luthiers who subscribe to this concept whole heartedly.
Usually they talk about tone woods though. For example, i read recently where SCGC made a guitar using maple as a tone wood that sounded fantastic. Conventional "wisdom" was that maple was not suited as a tone wood, to which the author replied, "in the hands of hack guitar mfgs" or something to that effect. (i'll see if i can find that reference and link it here)
The point being is that, it's not the material (as long as it meets basic reguirements), it's the construction.
Now i'm really confused.
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gh1 |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Hobbycat, you are fully entitled to your own dumbass opinion.
Just like every other dumbass here.
My 'O's are loud, stay in tune, feel wonderfull in my hands, and don't dig into my ribs like a woodbox when I jump around...as I'm prone to do. I like 'em.
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Location: PDX | Ok i found that link.
Here are the quotes i was referencing:
Maple also has a bad rep (perhaps I should say bad rap?) based on the guitars of the makers who typically use it. I think that sound is more indicative of how they build instruments than it is with any inherent quality of the wood itself.
And:
Here's my 3 cents' worth on the subject (2 cents gets ya nothing these days).
The top is 98% or more of the final sound. Body woods color the top sound, and that effect is most apparent to the player, not the listeners. The design of the box - and especially the skill of the luthier - is more important than the tonal quality of the body woods. Torres, Mozzani, Kaman and many others have demonstrated this over and over with guitars made of paper, plywood, plastic etc. Again, the most important part is the degree of skill that goes into making the guitar. Materials themselves are a guarantee of nothing.
Who knows for sure?
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gh1 |
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Location: Canada | And here I was expecting a post about birch bark bikinis!
I think you're right about the current trends and the way the group mind thinks about guitars at certain different eras. The vintage era we're in right now re guitars only really swept in around the mid '90s to my reckoning. Take Fender, for example: Telecasters are exceedingly popular right now as solid bodied guitars but I'm old enough to remember that if your guitar wasn't hot pink with a floyd rose and a drooping headstock it wasn't cool. There are guitar stores I visit here in TO that seem to have collective amnesia about those days - You'd think they were always bare-bones vintage purists, the way they carry on.
On the topic of acoustic guitars - It has increasingly become common knowledge that solid tops sound better. My old GC 1118 would certainly seem to support this but, you know, I've owned some laminate-topped guitars that sounded great too. Personally, I think the carbon fibre Adamas tops are an exciting "new" frontier that will only garner more admirers in the years to come (hard to see that now, I'll admit).
I think Ovations to a lot of people represent an archaic time of discovery (like how the space race itself is seen as an old fashioned idea). New ideas were being applied to guitars and many of them were great ideas but they now seem - to some - quaint and impractical. Like I said earlier, everyone wants 'tradition' now without necessarily knowing why (or realizing that they're part of a general new 'tradition' trend).
It's disappointing to have 'guitar professionals' be condescending about our Ovations but one thing I've noticed is that the attitude mainly comes from retailers who don't carry them.
I've said it before and the one thing I don't want is to sound like everyone else. Ovations have a unique sound that isn't in lock step with the fashions right now and I see that as a great thing - They are a strong, viable alternative to the myriad 'Martin Taylor' acoustic tones out there. One of the very few stand alone brands with a true voice of its own. |
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Location: Illinois | Originally posted by gh1:
[qb] Well, you confused me. I'm not sure what you're asking here.
But i will comment on a couple of things:
he main problem with the Ovation is the plastic bowl and "plastic sound", which will disqualify it as a true acoustic in the first place.
Not acoustic? Huh? What is it then? Of course it's acoustic. Hollow body, sound board, strings, vibrations, displaced air, etc. Next you'll say it's not a guitar?
***I agree that an instrument is acoustic if it relies on no on board amplification or pick-ups. i.e. no wires or speakers. A Steinway piano is an acoustic instrument.
However, I can make a case for the O being not a guit tar in the traditional sense, it has elelments of the guitar, 6 or 6 courses of strings, the body resembles the female form, but it also has attributes of the lute, the bowl back. To me the O sounds like a guitar and a lute combined. Kind of a Lutar.
the author stated that maybe the choice of material in a guitar is not as important for the sound that we might like to think, it's more about the overall construction.
Absolutely. Kaman proved it. I know of luthiers who subscribe to this concept whole heartedly.
Usually they talk about tone woods though. For example, i read recently where SCGC made a guitar using maple as a tone wood that sounded fantastic. Conventional "wisdom" was that maple was not suited as a tone wood, to which the author replied, "in the hands of hack guitar mfgs" or something to that effect. (i'll see if i can find that reference and link it here)
*** Oh Contrair mone frair. Maple is and has long been used as a tone wood. The Gibson Dove, for example.
The point being is that, it's not the material (as long as it meets basic reguirements), it's the construction.
Now i'm really confused.
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gh1 *** Material selection affects tone as well as construction. Each style having it's own attributes. Each having it's own following. Heck, even Taylor found out, quite by accident that there is a market for a guit tar made out of pallet wood. Although I suspect the 'look' is more of the driving force of the demand as opposed to tone. |
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Location: Central Florida | If you're looking to the current reign of "artists" dominating the charts and airwaves, then yes, Ovations would appear to be "out of fashion," as you put it. But, I disagree with your assesment that Ovations have a "plastic sound." At one time I would have agreed with you (ie - the 70s). But, since the mid 80s, and the development of the A brace and other improvements, Ovation has consistantly been producing some (acoustically) fine sounding guitars, and keep getting better all the time.
On the subject of all-wood constructed guitars, there is a tonal difference you can hear, and I've yet to find an Ovation that could accurately match the sound of an all wood guitar, but that's not a bad thing. I like the Ovation sound, and when I want it, I reach for one of my Os. However, I also like the sound of my all-wood Martins, and they give me a sound all together different from my Ovations. It's the old ice cream argument, really---different flavors, different choices, but it's all ice cream in the end.
Getting back to your observation, I think what happened with Ovation in the 70s is they became THE stage guitar for artists at just about every level. It was a novel idea being able to play acoustic on stage and not only have the freedom of not having to stand stoically in front of a mic, but also producing as true an acoustic sound than had been possible before. No guitar historian worth their salt would deny that Ovation alone blazed that trail. Unfortunately in hindsight, it appears that once other guitar manufacturers caught up with the technology and began offering high quality pickup systems in their all wood guitars, Ovations were almost immediately reduced to that of stop-gap measure status. It seemed artists almost overnight started abandoning their Ovations in favor of Martins, Gibsons, Taylors, et al, with improved means of reproducing their acoustic sound. Ovation no longer had the "exclusive" as the premier stage guitar anymore. It's taken a while, but I believe Ovation is on their way to becoming a high-profile guitar in the industry again. It may take some "wooing" from marketing to get players to warm up to them again, but I believe it can happen. Ovation is making guitars today that are increasingly hard to ignore! |
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Location: Snåsa, Norway | Originally posted by Jeff:
IBut, I disagree with your assesment that Ovations have a "plastic sound." Not my assesment, I actually found it on Harmony central from a guy who rated the sound of a Custom Legend to 1 because "the plastic bowl destroyed a fine wooden top". |
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Location: Canada | Originally posted by HobbyPicker:
Not my assesment, I actually found it on Harmony central from a guy who rated the sound of a Custom Legend to 1 because "the plastic bowl destroyed a fine wooden top". Well there's your problem (Harmony Central) right there! :)
HobbyPicker, I've had to re-read your post: Are you saying that this current 'anti-industrialist' trend is something you agree with or are you - like me - simply identifying it as a currently popular school of thought (and one that will, in time fall out of fashion once again).
NOTE: I'm not saying the traditionalist guitar makers are wrong or misguided in anyway. I just think one should believe their ears more than 'guitar lit' when it comes to music. |
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Location: Snåsa, Norway | Originally posted by Oster:
HobbyPicker, I've had to re-read your post: Are you saying that this current 'anti-industrialist' trend is something you agree with or are you - like me - simply identifying it as a currently popular school of thought (and one that will, in time fall out of fashion once again).
NOTE: I'm not saying the traditionalist guitar makers are wrong or misguided in anyway. I just think one should believe their ears more than 'guitar lit' when it comes to music. I share your position in both matters! :cool:
To those of you who are confused of my original post, I realize that my thoughts on this are not very structured, and the message isn't getting clearer since english is not my native language. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | In 1977 I filled out a little questionaire saying that I bought my Ovation because of it was easy to play and had a balanced sound. They were still somewhat "high-tech" oddities then. It's interesting that the companies that the traditional methods then are now experiencing a resurgence and Ovation is considered old school.
Ovations sounded and played good then and still do. The quality of wood available for guitars has supposedly gone down, yet people think that "all wood" guitars mean higher quality.
Some things never change, such as the American public's ability to be suckered into thinking that good advertising means good quality. Read Walter Carter's book on Ovation guitars. Ovation makes a lot of sense if you're looking for quality rather than just popularity. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by HobbyPicker:
I also have a feeling that Ovations...are more out of fashion today. That's precisely correct, particularly in your use of the word "fashion". |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | On handwork coming back, this is true. It's being talked about a lot because the art was all but lost. Surprisingly I hear, its the young new Luthier's that are bringing hand work back.
As far as tone woods, and tone in general, as discussed before, it's all subjective. If you think a guitar should have a "wood" tone, then by all means, you should have a wood guitar. If you think good sound is clean, even, tone reproduction across the spectrum, then wood may not be for you. In addition, as I have said many times before. Think back to the early stringed instruments. They did not have SQUARE backs, they were round. As best as I can tell "square" happened for the purposes of consistency and buildability (ok I made that word up). Rule #1 of acoustics, NO CORNERS!!!!!
Something I see a lot is a reference to "hand work." I think most are VERY surprised at the amount of "handwork" that goes into an Ovation.
One point that really sticks out, is that some of the "Retro" or even "cutting edge" things the other companies are doing now, Ovation was doing 20 or even as much as 30 years ago. They didn't get credit for it then, and they certainly aren't getting credit for it now. That's the reason we have the infamous line on the welcome page about respect.
In a nutshell, I really don't care about the folks that say, "check out my xxxxxx thousand dollar handmade acoustic here" guitar, because I know with reasonable certainty that for my ears, my '70's Medallion (Matrix) with its aluminum neck, all beat up and worn, will sound better. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Lute-like. I like that. Like original Balladeers and Bards.
That also makes it pre-traditional, or prior to the cornered guitars.
But don't go back too far or we become the "gourd-back" guitars. |
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Location: big island | having played "traditional" all-wood guitars for nearly 40 years, i found it necessary to seek out other options due only to the effect hawaii's environment has on wood. i initially got a rainsong a few years ago and was pleased with it plugged in but could not handle its "plastic" acoustic sound. it had no volume and certainly no warmth. i was comparing it, however, to the gibson j-200's voice. in my opinion, the j-200 with maple back and sides and sitka spruce top, is the finest sounding big-company guitar out there. as much as i love the look of koa wood, the j-200 with koa back and sides pales in comparison of clarity and volume to the maple model. i've owned both and each had the sitka tops. so yes, maple is a great tone wood. gibson company has a bad rep for getting neck angles wrong and coupled with the humidity here, the sitka top would belly-up relatively quickly. countless neck resets later, i now own an adamas smoothie and still miss the j-200 sound immensely. i am seriously considering one of those all-wood (plus lots of baloney!)chinese blueridge units, perhaps the BR-163 or 183 models just for the price and acoustic woodiness. i have not played one but the reviews are excellent. i wonder if the chinese will dissect and frankenstein the j-200 any time soon? |
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Location: Illinois | Originally posted by MWoody:
Lute-like. I like that. Like original Balladeers and Bards.
That also makes it pre-traditional, or prior to the cornered guitars.
But don't go back too far or we become the "gourd-back" guitars. And the ever popular staved back. aka 'tater bugs' :cool: |
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Location: SE Michigan | Are there any others round who share my opinion, or am I completely wrong and confused?
Asking this question here is like logging onto a Catholic web-forum and asking what they think of the Virgin Mary. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | Interesting post. I think that wood is in fashion right now, that is the reality, wood can be very attractive and some of the best wooden guitars are being made currently. We are in a golden age of wooden guitar construction and people have the money to buy these things. More power to them. I think Ovation's issue is that they are inbetween. They are no longer on the cutting edge of alternative materials. They have parts that linger in the past: wood necks, bowls that still haven't changed all that much. It is interesting that some of the most interesting guitars they are producing now are really reissues of adamas guitars made twenty years ago. They should have lend the way into a total composite guitar and they didn't. That is not a sound issue. But to me a perception issue that they are no longer pushing into new frontiers. This may be a little harsh, but I think you know what I am saying. And it is not that I don't love my Ovation guitars.
Steve |
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Location: NJ | ". . asking what they think of the Virgin Mary . ."
Needs vodka. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Yeah, that worked on the virgins in our school too. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Great Thread,Great Wisdom..yet no-one mentions the Sound (effect) that strings have..check the C F M site,makers of guitars with " magic " built in ,look at their different strings and accompanying comments..you`ll find phrases such as " woody " tone, and what about plectra,( the Very Cheapest way to Alter the Sound )in different sizes,different materials = different sounds...or maybe I`m just colordeaf ;)
:cool:
Vic |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | The trend in Brooklyn is for the kids to be very conservative, and have an all wood box. You're right, it's a fashion du jour. And in Brooklyn the underground music is country and its off shoots. I'm just glad they're moving away from hip-hop rap-crap. the more things change the more they stay the same. |
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Location: San Bernardino, California | Speaking of handwork:
http://robinsoninlays.com/ |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | That maybe the reason ,as to Why Martin make intro models, with plastic backs that look like wood.. ;)
:rolleyes:
Vic |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Originally posted by MWoody:
Lute-like. I like that. Like original Balladeers and Bards.
That also makes it pre-traditional, or prior to the cornered guitars.
But don't go back too far or we become the "gourd-back" guitars. Personally I don't care, I think mine are just "gourd-geous!" ;) |
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All solid wood fashion
