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Location: 6 String Ranch | Have any of you seen the new TANGENT guitar?
How many like it?
How many think it is a stinking steaming pile of carpet staining runny dog spoo?
How many can guess my feelings? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I saw it at NAMM, but I did not play it. Mixed emotions actually. Looks cool, and I think if the price is right, might be good for entry level players like kidz in schools. Reminds me of the "The ThunderBolt" which I frankly never understood. I did play one, as a friend has one. It's ok..
I guess like the difference between "An Automobile" and just a "car", there is a differnce between a "Fine Musical Instrument" and just a "guitar."
Let the flames begin..... |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Ovation have had some pretty cool players/endorsees through the years, but when they chose Megadeth to launch the Tangents on their website it kinda put me off before I'd even seen the guitars. I just get visions of Spinal Tap, spandex & big hair (and the Thunderbolt, what the f*** was that all about?) I'm intrigued by the statement that the Tangents feature what will be the basis for future preamps. It'll need to be pretty good to better the Optima.
Paul |
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Location: NJ | I saw the Tangent at Namm. I had a hard time warming up to it. I did try it but it was not for me. If the young rocker is the target audience I guess then it will appeal to them.
As for Megadeth my wife is a big fan To be honest I don't even know if Dave Mustaine writes any acoustic numbers most of the stuff my wife plays is at volumnes that makes the walls breath. I find no problem with Megadeth as an endorsee. They sell records are kinda high profile in the metal community and may sell guitars.
the problem I have as a vendor is that to the uneducated I have to explain the difference between the USA made and the import guitars. Most people will bring a celebrity and want to trade it for an elite and will have no clue of the quality or the differece. I have spent hours trying to explain why the import mando is so much cheaper than the USA one and I usually get a blank stare with "but they look the same"
I understand the reason for import guitars and that they keep the US line in business but my only wish is that they did not say Ovation on the headstock. When they said celebrity on the headstock you could distinguish it from the USA I sold an Applause to a guy last sunday who kept calling it an ovation and I just kept saying to him over and over that this is only a reasonable fascimile of an ovation. Unfortunately his view is much like many others.
When I sell a guitar and I get the usual I don;t want a plastic guitar or why do I want to buy that piece of crap? I usually ask if they had ever played an american made ovation. 9 out of 10 times they had not. I put an adamas or an elite in their hands and well they will still complain about the bowl back but will admit that it is a nice sounding and playing guitar.
So you have a guitar like the tangent that has an IMHO less than desireable looking headstock and again you are fighting the import vs us battle. At least people may say well the ones with the funny headstocks are imports and the real ones are the standard headstocks.
Hell I dunno I may be all wet here. I am not into marketing and I like many guitars amps effects etc that othes hate so my opinion is probably not even valid.....your mileage may vary
BTW I LOVED the Thunderbolt. That was Designed for the electric player and was a very cool guitar. Sure it reeked of the 80's but that is what made it so cool. |
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Location: Scotland | My point about Megadeth was not intended as a criticism of a obviously successful act or their ability to be an effective marketing tool, but merely that as I do not relate to thier music (which suggests a very specific style of guitar) then I probably would not relate to the instruments with which they choose to produce it. The one picture I have see of a Tangent screamed "Rock" and indeed, "Roll" The Ovation website currently (& conveniently) avoids mentioning that they are produced in the Far East.
I'm sure the Thundebolt is as great sounding & playing as any Ovation in it's class, I just despise the "Rawk" image. Im my opinion the mid to late 80's were desperate times for guitar music & guitar design, where speed was more important than substance & if you didn't have a Floyd-Rose & a naked woman painted on your guitar you were an outcast. I'm relieved taste eventually won through.
Your point about the mandolins & the Celebrities is right on the money. I have a USA Mandolin, the other guitar player in my band saw it & bought a Korean version (which by this time had an up-graded preamp) There is no comparison, in terms of construction, materials, feel, playability, tuning stability, intonation etc. the USA version leaves it dead in the water. The acoustic sound is killer. From a distance they look almost identical but the celebrity sounds like what it is - a cheap korean instrument. Great value but...
Paul |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I'm not sure why, but I feel a need to comment on "cheap Korean" guitars. No I'm not married to a Korean, but I do have friends there, and have been there a few times in the last couple of years. I just wanted to clarify that the "cheap" guitars we get in the US from Korea are "cheap" because that's what they are contracted to build. There are some fine high-quality insturments made in Korea. There is no export market for them. You won't find to many Korean musicians playing the crap that is exported to the US, but they will be playing Korean instruments.
This crosses over into the electronics market too. A simple thing like their CELL phones are at least 3-5 years ahead of anything we have in that technology.
I saw a shop in the musical instrument district in Soeul where you can watch the guy making your violin, actually fitting the pieces to the owner. The art of the luthier and accomplished craftsman is alive and well, but for the most part, we can't afford them... or more accurately I guess is that most companies wouldn't be able to sell the intruments at the price necessary to make a profit. |
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Location: Scotland | Absolutely! That was not meant to be a shot at the skills of the Koreans or any other Far Eastern manufacturer, who are capable of incredible craftsmanship, but more a shot at the general instrument buying public who want the world on a stick for less than the price of a night out, especially here in the UK. (I read a report in a trade magazine that the average guitar sale in the US is around $450, in the UK it's less than a third of that) The point is that in the current economic state of the music retail industry, a cheap instrument from Korea or anywhere, will generally sound cheap. Gone are they days when major US manufacturers made entry level or student grade instruments from the same materials & to the same standards as their main lines.(I have a 1940's Gibson-built Kalamazoo which is spectacular) Some Korean, Japanese & Indonesean companies are perfectly capable of competeing with Western instrument factory standards, but the cost would make the whole excersise unrealistic.
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: NJ | in 71 i bought my first "good" guitar a gibson LP deluxe it was 319 with hardshell case tax strings pick cable strap and a handshake from the owner of the store.
It is impossible to buy a USA made instrument for anywhere near that price now. that is why the imports florish. A decent USA made intrument will cost you over a grand and then you are getting a Hamer (nothing wrong with Hamer I play them and love them )you cannot touch Gibsons or PRS guitars.
think about it that is why the Ovation solid bodies are such a bargain. It would be impossible to get an american made instrument at the current rate most of those guitars bring. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Paul and Al (and whomever else is listening)
You both hit the nail on the head and understood exactly where I was going with that.
Here's an odd observation.. (I'm good at these).. In Korea you can rent an "ok" two bedroom apartment in Seoul for the equal of about $3000 a month (no that wasn't misprint).. and you can buy a decent, quality guitar for about the equal of $500-$800. In Maryland (and I'm picking this state not only because it's where I live, but because of the famous guitar maker down the street)... You can get that apartment for $500-$800 dollars a month, but a good quality guitar will run you close to $3000.
Just an observation.... |
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Location: NJ | but who wants to live in maryland?????? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | LOL... I know your busting on me... but I hope the point wasn't lost.. that a decent guitar, not talking super Vintage, or totally handmade.. just decent, well make musical instrument... should not cost more than rent. It seems like there really is no "mid-level" guitars, or I'm just not seeing them..
Does anyone know what the street price of the Tangent will be/is? |
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Location: NJ | msrp 749.50 so figure 30% off of that |
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Location: Scotland | Miles, Paying the rent or buying a guitar is a choice I've always had difficulty with!
Try buying a USA guitar in the UK after shipping, tax, import duty, distributors & retailers have all had their cut. I bought my Adamas SMT from Germany & saved about £1000 off the UK retail. There was no UK tax or duty to pay as Germany is an EEC Country. It's amazing how regional economy, exchange rates, & quite possibly greed can affect list prices.
Paul |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I am actually roughly familiar with what you must be going through... Several years ago I had mentioned wanting to go back to the UK for a visit to a music store owner. He told me I should buy a Les Paul, take it with me, and sell it when I got to the UK. He said, I could undercut the local cost, and still pay for my plane ticket. WOW. |
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Location: Scotland | He's prety much right,If your're carefull you could certainly finance a flight with a Les Paul or a PRS, as they tend not to be discounted much in the UK & retail prices are crazy. There is much discussion in UK guitar magazines about the pros & cons of buying guitars from the USA either while visiting or by mail order/internet. The major bugbear is sales tax & import duty which currently runs at around 24%. Some UK airports seem to be more thourough than others. I was stopped at Heathrow & had to pay duty but not at Gatwick even though I declared the Instrument!!! (both in London) I've bought several of my Ovation's from US dealers or Ebay & sometimes I get hit for tax & duty, other times not. At the moment I'm one or two up on Customs. I'm sure they'll get me next time. It's interesting to note that I sold my very early PRS Custom to a buyer in the USA for far more than it would have brought in the UK.
Paul |
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Location: NJ | Paul
I don't think greed has anything to do with it. You are talking about simple supply and demand. If there is large deamand in the UK for usa instruments then the price will be high. For example you will be more likely to find a burns or an early marshall than I would in the US yet I could probably have my choice of most USA guitars.
If I want a bmw or a vincent in the usa I am looked at as an elitist snob but I bet harleys bring the big bucks in the UK also.
It all depends on regional supply and demand what is popular here and plentiful may not be where you are.
I have a customer in the canary islands that asked me why aren;t early ovations in demand in the USA... I have no clue some are some aren't I would venture to say there are more adamas guitars in Japan then there are in the US I personall sold about 10 to 15 to Japanese exporters. so it is all about supply and demand not greed I sell a bunch of stuff mailorder and many of my customers are overseas buyers who buy direct instead of from a middle man. there is some risk to doing that but usually it works out fine |
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Location: Scotland | Al, my remark about the possibility of greed was directed at some UK distributors of USA instruments, rather than dealers. I'm aware that there are lots of factors which condition prices, especially with imports, but when you are talking about a non-vintage, readily available instrument which costs over £2k with case in the UK & can be had in Germany for just over a grand including shipping, then something is amiss. We get shafted on all kinds of products in the UK. The car industry is in turmoil because the public have realised that it's cheaper to import cars (which in some cases have been built in the UK) from Europe than buy here. You would not believe our petrol prices compared to yours.
Paul |
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Location: NJ | Paul
vendors distributors etc charge what the market will bear. buying from alternative souces is your best defense but if people continue to buy from these overpriced vendors they will not alter ther prices.
I guess if you are one person boycotting a store it will not hurt them Many people going outside the UK to buy instruments will hurt them. I guess it is similar to me not going to my local mcdonald's that has a horrible foodservice record. their parking lot is still full and they still sell plenty of horrible fries and they won;t go out of business because of me.
although I have never been to the UK I am aware of "gasoline" aka "petrol" prices around the world... If you live in this world and have any interest in global econoics you have to be aware of how petrochemicals impact the economic systems of the world. As for cars are you aware of how many closed factories are in detroit? the asian car market is killing the us car market also not that it matters since there are few current production american cars that I would want to own anyway. |
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Location: Scotland | Well at least McDonanld's are consistent. It's good to know they're just as crap in the States as they are here.
Paul |
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Location: Lemoyne, Pennsyltucky | Tangent = confused customers. As was said of Spinal Tap, the Tangent "fills a much needed void". There are better ways for Ovation to use their money. |
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Opinions Please
