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 Would would you like to see playing ovation guitars???
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
elias |
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| Joined: February 2002 Posts: 119 Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | He, he, he, he, he, !!!!!!!! That was really good Al!!!!!!!!! Really really GOOD!!!!!! | ||
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| elias |
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| Joined: February 2002 Posts: 119 Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | This is a follow up to Sam's comments. We have discussed these issues over and over again with Sam, and other Ovation related people. Unfortunately this is the sheer truth and the current unpleasant (to me too) reality. I have nothing more to add on all that. I completely agree with Sam. I wouldn't buy a current production Ovation. I love the old (vintage?) Ovations and Adamases. it's the construction, the sound, the glory! It's their magic! I hope things will change, I hope they'll hear us, I hope we can do and we all do something about that. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | Sam PLEASE do not think I am picking on you I am not but there are many contradictins in your post that I need clarified. post 1 post 2 ok so which is it? if you started collecting in 1990 then you bought new modern guitars or 30 year old unsold guitars from new vendors? you confuse me here sam. post 1 post 2 I am sure you can see by reading your first post how it was unclear pertaining to which guitars you were talking about. post 1 again I am confused if you bought new guitars and started in 1990 then you would not own any guitars built past 1980 yet you bough them new??? post 1 post 2 OK so we now agree that all guitars should have electronics that makes sense to me but I am still confused pertaining to what constitutes a good acoustic sound to you?. what criteria are you using? in post 2 you say I strongly disagree sam these woods have different properties and different sounds. I am still floored over the redwood guitars they sound awesome. Iguess you did not seriously look at the 2002 it has a new preamp system and the neck i attached like the original ovations were. Innovative no but a definitive return to the roots. so far the only thing that you complained about that directly effects the sound of the guitars is the bowl design and honestly I am not so sure on the degree that the change has made. Other changes you have complained about are cosmetics see this quote from post 2 <..Then they offer us a watered down model called the adamas SMT..They take away the the distinctive carved headstock and bridge.They take away the adamas binding,they put no fretboard inlays and they take away the option of a deep bowl..OK,now the custom legend,they take away the carved bridge and trus cover,they reduce the size of the diamond shape inlays to a microscopic size,they cheapin up the rosette with a smaller inlayed rosette...Do you get my point.They take away nice features and keep the price the same or raise the price.They continue to take away the high end features and qualities while adding more and more cheper models> Sam all that you mention here are cosmetics and yes I agree with you some of those changes are not that great but they really have no direct impact on the overall sound of the guitar. Bracing thickness of finish wood used yes all have impact on sound but not the size of the inlays. post 2 < What have they offered lately? "The tangent"..That is(as Bill said) a peace of dog @##$%..This is the new model the guys at ovation offer us?? How about offering something new and exiting on the higher end..> I believe the term is runny carpet staining dog spoo but hey I may be wrong. You are right Sam a perhaps poor judgement in a new model BUT the Adamas Q is still in the works and every time I see one in progess at the factory I can only think what the final product will be like.... Sam you are making me sound like a marketing puke and I don't even work for the company!!!! LOL Sam I know you are very passionate about ovations and I respect that. I am too. Remember both Miles and I started this site to promote what we love about ovation guitars. sure there are problems and we can address them and discuss them but it would help if you could be a little more complete in your critiques so we can better help evaluate and criticize. be specific so we can better analyze and contribute. please don't take his personally once again | ||
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| samova |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, the few (2-3 )new ovations i bought were NOS guitars that i got at a bargain from local music stores and i simply turned them for a quick buck.I did not want them for myself.As i said before i would not buy any new ovation currently in the ovation line,not to keep.Im sorry,they do not inspire me..I wish they did because as i said i am a big fan of Ovations.Just not the recent offerings...When i play my 1968 Glen cambell shiny bowl or my slotted headstock Adamas model..I hear the sounds that Charlie was aiming for and acheaved...I play my adamas #33 and compare the sound to my Martin D42 and the sound is right there with it,in some ways better ..I typically dont compare ovations to other wood guitars as i know they are different.But my early ovations sounded that good that i can compare them... Al, you dont have to defend ovations to me.If you like them then thats great.I personally have not found anything new in the ovation line that speaks to me but i will keep an open mind.. I have played the first ovation (old # 6)and i have played the most recent 2002 ovations and everything in between.I have even played the adamas Q's prototypes (two of them).I will always keep my eyes on the ovations when i go to music stores and hope to walk in one day and find a new model that captures me and i can write on this site how much i love the new ovation.I would also like to comment on how their quality has improved(wishful thinking)..I look forward to that day because i am an ovation fan.Until then i will just keep playing my old adamases,1967 Josh white model and 1968 Glen campbell model along with my Martins,Larrivees and others.... | ||
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| Beal |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 14127 Location: 6 String Ranch | Many interesting points raised here 1. Family vs corp mentality. Very true, Ovation used to be family but lost it (lit and fig) The good Acoustics are family run, Collings, National Resophonic, Santa Cruz, Laravie, Taylor etc. You don't have to(fender) but you usually loose something when it's corporate run. 2. Sam, Bowl material. there is a small difference but the other variables in the guitar more than make up for it. 3. Hours per guitar. It of course varies but figure 8-10 plus or minus depending on the model 4. Imports. If I came across as against them that's not correct. They are necessary, Hell I was the one who picked the roundback factory in Korea in 82. It's just that the imports should be copies of the path you've already opened. When there is no R&D to speek of and the imports take the lead you wind up steering the boat by looking at the wake. not a good plan. 5. Plug it in. The MPs thought this up so they could differentiate Ovation from Takamine. Ovation was the Electric/acoustic and Tak was the Acoustic/electric. A total load of codswallop but there you have it. It wound up being an excuse for not making an acoustic that could really stand on its own. "plug it in, it will sound better" Now this IS a good sound but they all lost sight of the fact that ovation should be a great ACOUSTIC guitar that works great plugged in. 6. I'd be happy to sign lables. Send them to sunny Fla. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | In an effort to try to reel this post in before it gets totally lost in the storm. 1. I think we all can agree that the supershallow bowl guitars were desigened as electrics and not acoustics. some time in the eighties and then the nineties gibson acoustics became real popular with some recording engineers why because of the same reason every one hated them for years they sounded dull and flat and if put in front of a mic you can mess with the sound a lot more than a martin or guild that booms acoustically. from that point guitar makers made guitars that are less responsive acoustically. although I get called on it all the time to my ears taylors are very generic and even sounding no guts but that is what appeals to today;s user but not to me. 2. family operated businesses usually have a more homey feel and are easier to relate to than big corporations Sure but I know some families that are a real mess and their business reflects that. If you call me you get me or my wife if your item comes to you damaged it is because I did not pack it right. get me in the right mood I will talk to you for an hour on the phone write me a 3 page e mail you may get a 3 word answer... there are limitations and advantages I think the most important part is to have guitar people making the decisions for a guitar company. sometimes you just have to take risks. 3. r & D is important and vital to your product line. if you depend on the tried and true designs of the past then your product can become tired and out of favor. I think part of the reason why you see so many taks out there is not solely because they sound good amplified but because they look like a guitar and don;t have the ovation stigma. I do not remember seeing one ovation on the mtv unplugged series althugh I saw every other brand known to man and some that I did not even know had acoustic guitars in their line. for years Martins came with high action and heavy strings from the factory because that is the way theeir customers in the old days wanted them. so dealers would get new guitars recut the nut and put lighter strings on them and sell the guitas. sometimes doing things because of tradition is not end user friendly 4. the flagship line or high end guitars should have the ornamentation that those guitars deserve. Apparently we posters here like ornamentation. inlays carved headstocks bridges etc. I have a d 35 but it is no way as attractive as a d 45 although it sounds wonderful. something about guitarists that like that glitz and glamour 5. the consumer should have a voice in the products well this is achieved by market share and units sold. Sure many people that buy a celebrity wlll go on and buy a usa ovation at some point. Others may be turned off it all depends on the individual. This is the forum to voice your opinion this is the place to give your ideas and criticisms. but if it degenerates into a "fill in the brand name sucks" or " fill in the brand name rules" then the whole process is degenerative I despise blanket statements with no validation. If you make a statement back it up with facts or explain it to the best of your abilities. if you say a guitar " does not speak to you" then al the musician poet songwriter can relate. but al the technician has no clue what that means and needs some hard facts to make sense. I am sure Bloomfield is watching us taking notes and wanting to gag some of us. 6. there needs to be more of a distinction between the imports and usa product lines. when I was at the factory last fall for the Hamer fan club festivities Frank Untermeyer took us through the ovation factory and talked about a return to craftsmanship and making the USA line more distinctive. A new preamp is in the works thinner finishes different neck attachmnt system etc. well only time will tell till we see some of this trickle down to the stores. just a point of clarificatin about myself. I am first a musician (no matter how awful my guitar playing may be)/songwriter/author then I am a collector and I am also an instrument vendor. As a result I often look at things from different points of view. Miles seems real good at distinguihing which is which I am not always that good think of me as the message board's equivalent to sybil. Ultimately I think if elias keeps posting pics of hot bims with ovtion guitars we may all loose focus!!! | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7210 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Who needs focus? Keep'em coming Elias! | ||
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| samova |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, im very sure that the guys at the factory would like to gag some of us("ME") on the site.But maybe the truth hurts sometimes.Maybe someone has to say things and open a dialogue about the guitars.In the long run this may help the ovation guitar company!!I dont think im being unreasonable in writting and asking ovation not to send guitars to music stores with problems such as waves in the tops below the bridge.Im not imagining this problem.It exists and the factory knows it and many customers know it.I have been checking their high end american guitars for this problem for over two years now.I also dont think its unreasonable to ask for high end American models with better ornamentation available and more importantly high end acoustic/electric models that have great acoustic unplugged sound..I think Bill said it best that they should design a great sounding acoustic guitar that also has electronics on it....Im not saying to go back to building early models like the Glen Campbell or Josh white or even the original adamases but dont continue to take away features,ornamentation and unplugged acoustic sound and expect us to like it...Is that asking too much? | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | the answer is NO that is not asking or too much but Sam I have to admit did you even read my post? I agreed with you on every point. my only criticism is you keep saying the guitars sound bad but give no other reason than the bowl changed in 1980. EXPLAIN why you feel the guitars are not good acoustically the current mid to deep depth bowl we agree the supershallow were meant to be electric. the top wood does not matter arguement is invalid I am sure luthiers and musicians will argue that point to their death that it does matter and have been making that point for thousands of years. You say you know they are not going to make the old models and should not be expected to. OK then we are in agreeement BUT HOW what steps will the factory have to take to make the guitars sound better to YOU. aside from cosmetic issues and wavy tops you have yet to give them any guidance as to what you feel is wrong and why the guitars do not speak to you. I really feel like I am beating a dead horse here and wish elias would post more pics. [ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] | ||
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| samova |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, the only explanation i need to give to you or ovation about their guitars is that in my view and with my two ears their guitars do not sound good acoustically like they used to.You, by your own admission told us in another post how some lady was coming to your home to buy a newer adamas and when she played an earlier adamas II you had laying around she bought the adamas II.You went on the say that there was a huge difference in the sound.So,if the adamas is the top of the line ovation and they simply do not sound as good as they used to.Then we have a problem because there are a lot of guitar makers fighting for the high end guitar dollar....Al, its not my job to analize and explain why the current ovations do not sound good.Its Ovations job!! All i can do as a consumer is listen to the sound of the instrument. All i know is what my ear is telling me and it tells me there is something missing.Acoustically these guitars are dead sounding.I feel its the "plug it in" mentality.As i said before i have an early adamas that sounds as good if not better than my Martin D42 acoustically.Doubt you can make that comparison today with a CVT or a SMT.. So, as far as my explaining why they sound bad or giving Ovation guidance,i say its not my job...Im sure there are many high payed suites at ovation who should do this..Dont expect me the end user the consumer to design the guitars for them.Im not a luthier im a guy who wants to buy these guitars.I suspect the problem and i dont know this for a fact is that the guys running the show at ovation are probably marketing guys who probably dont have much passion for guitars or even know much about guitars...Its all about selling product....Maybe im wrong ?? Anyway,the bottom line is that i like ovations a want to see them succeed.I would like to buy more of their guitars in the future.Its up to them!!! (hey,how about a SAMOVA model,he,he,he)..... | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Somebody once said that talking about sound is like dancing about architecture. I have a 1978 Adamas, I also have a recent SMT. I love both, but I prefer the sound of the SMT, both acoustically & amplified. One man's meat etc. The SMT is for me, a far superior & practical stage guitar and which still cuts the mustard unplugged. Both guitars get used in state of the art analogue & digital recording studios on a regular basis at the University & college where I teach. I also use them in my own (very well equipped & acoustically treated) 24 track digital studio. I have been involved in pro-audio for 20-odd years, I have a very experienced ear which I take great care of with specialist hearing protection. I have the opportunity to play these guitars & others in acoustically neutral rooms & through studio monitors that cost more than the last new car I bought. My ears tell me something different to yours Sam, maybe mine aren't rose-coloured. Paul | ||
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| samova |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Paul, glad you enjoy your SMT...Your just the guy Ovation is looking for..... | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | I do not want to come off as an ogre or a company puke. All I wanted to do was elicit a response other than the "guitar sounds bad" If Bloomfield is watching, I would like them to listen to our critiques in layman or luthier terms, take them seriously and act on them. [ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] | ||
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| samova |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, and i dont want to come off as some ovation hating guy either.I love the ovation guitars and have over 50.I actually like the weavetop adamas somewhat.I dont know know that i would buy one but its a nice enough guitar..As far as why i dont like the sound,im not a luthier so i cannot break down where the acoustic sound problem is but as i said they do not sound exceptional unplugged and i would like to see ovations sound exceptional..I have been fighting the roundback ,fibeglass back battle for years with the wood guitar guys out there.I have defended ovation and told the Gibson,martin,Taylor boys that they should listen to my early adamases or Glen campbell model.So, i have been in the ovation camp probably longer than some ovation management.I have been fighting the good fight...Maybe this is why i expect more from ovation on the high end line.Maybe this is why i have been tough on the newer product line.I want Better quality and better unplugged sound.I think i have a good experienced ear and simply want ovations to be a guitar i can brag about again..There is no question about the plugged in sound.They compete with any guitar maker out there.So, i think we agree more than we dissagree here.I also would love to speak with management at ovation and discuss possible guitar ideas,etc..Throw some things around and open a dialogue with its loyal fans.Maybe something good can come out of it?My e-mail is Samova@aol.com | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15654 Location: SoCal | This is my first post here and hopefully not my last. There seems to be a discussion about older Ovations v. newer Ovations, and per Sam, the fact that the material in the back was changed in the early '80's, possibly a factor in the sound difference. I've played Ovations for almost 30 years (makes me sound old, but I got my first one at age 17). Currently, I own an 83 Elite, an 83 Country Artist, and a 93 Adamas 12 ("Big Blue"). I've played the Elite and Adamas against most other guitars and they hold they're own. Now to the debate. I've also got a 77 Legend. Beautiful guitar, hangs on the wall of my office. I wooed my wife with that guitar. Sounds like shit. I've got a good friend in Kansas City who also plays an Ovation. He too said that the material of the older bowls sounds better. Until he heard my Elite. Now he plays a 10 year old Elite (with the newer material). I personally don't think the older guitars sound better. I think the newer A bracing makes the differnce. And if Ovations of today don't sound as good as my guitars, I'd chaulk it up to cheaper materials. My Elite (from the first year made) is first class across the board. Elites today are cheaper in the soundboard and the neck. I guess my viewpoint is that there was a golden age of Ovations that ended in the early 90's. Or maybe I don't have a viewpoint...... | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | The point here is that there are a huge number of variables which contibute to the response & tonal quality of a musical instrument. Making sweeping statements about minor construction details, old versus new, or quoting personal opinions about something as subjective as guitar tone, as if they were quantifiable facts, does not stand up. I've played great & not so great guitars from every era of the company and that statement applies equally to instruments from companies like Martin, Gibson Guild, Taylor, et al Paul [ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | ||
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| elias |
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| Joined: February 2002 Posts: 119 Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | Elias' Epilogue! Guys please, FOCUS!!!! There is nothing sexier than chics with Ovations. But please: Don't loose it. Focus!  | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | Ovations ladies latex and leather perfect together | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15654 Location: SoCal | With pictures like these, I'm starting to wonder if I'm too young for this website. Whip me beat me make me write bad checks! My next post will be about guitars. | ||
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| s_mkheidze |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 33 Location: montreal | my only complaint with my acoustic is that the strings seem to go dead very fast. I put on new strings play the guitar 6-7 times and my strings lose that crisp sound. I've tried all kinds of strings and nothing changed. My beef with ovation, is their lack of vision. They have had very, very few new ideas introduced into thier lines in the last 10 years. All their acoustics look the same minus some small difference (yes, I know, US models are better than korean ones). I thought it was amazing when they put out the vipers a few years back, now the tangents, but they look the same as all the rest of thier stuff, minus the new headstock and the shiny metalic black finish. They NEED to go out on a limb with somthing, make some solid bodies, not many just 2 models at first, but they have to be of TOP QUALITY or they will flop! I am just dying to see somthing new from them, every year I go the official website hoping to see somthing new that catches my eye, but their models look the same year after year, so why the hell would I be interested in that?!?! But what do I know, they are the experts on what we like right? [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: s_mkheidze ] | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15654 Location: SoCal | Try Elixers, with the polycoating. They last forever. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | Leo Fender was neither a luthier nor a musician. He took the the advice of artists and musicians and transferred them into his knowledge of mechanics and technology. As a result he designed some of the most respected and copied guitars of the modern electric guitar era. You need not be a luthier to express yourself but put into words how you feel. Eric Pritchard who designed the PRS amps told me Carlos Santana told him he thought his amps sounded like white wine and he wanted an amp that sounds like red wine. Eric took that thought and transferred it into engineering terms and redesigned his amps. | ||
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