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January 2002
Posts: 970
Location: Atlanta,Ga. | I wanted to start a topic on this problem with the necks on super shallow bowl guitars and see if any of you have experienced this problem as well.It seems that i have seen and have owned super shallow bowl models that the neck has had problems adjusting or staying flat?The 12 string models especially with super shallow bowls seem to be even more problematic.I think that the problem may be that there is such a small surface area available on the top of the bowl where the neck heel and bowl connect.The heel is very thin compared to the mid and deep bowl.It leaves the guitar with high string action and virtually unplayable...On the shallow bowls the heel is very short,probably 1-2 inches shorter than the mid or deep bowl models.With the shorter heel it does not give the neck much surface area to keep the neck streight and to hold string tension.It tends to bow or sometimes pull forward away from the bowl.I think ovation should redesign the shallow bowl to where the neck to heel connection contours out more at the top of the bowl and leaves a larger surface area where the connection is and therefore they can install necks with longer heels like the mid and deep bowl necks.This would make a much stronger neck connection and it would allow ovation to use the same necks on two different bowl sizes.Less necks to have to manufactuer and stock.currently they have to build different necks for shallow and mid bowl guitars...They can keep the rest of the bowl the same just contour it out more at the top for a larger heel surface area..This would solve a lot of neck problems with the shallow bowl guitars..Any thoughts from other members about this? |
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February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | I can't offer much, but I'm very curious as to where this thread will go. I study intermittently in a school (for lack of a better word) of music called Guitar Craft. Over the years I've known hundreds if not thousands of guitarists who all use super-shallow Ovations as their main instrument. They gig with these things indoors and out, attend seminars in weird facilities often without heat, etc. Point being, these guitars are played extensively, and they are not handled with kid gloves. Most students own only one, so everybody's guitar gets alot of mileage. What's more, we work in an unusual tuning which I understand has a higher overall string tension than standard tuning.
I've never seen one of these guitars develop a neck problem, and they're all set up for very low action. My own Elite super-shallow plays like a shredder and has never required a setup in the 13 years I've owned it.
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December 2001
Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | I have not experienced this specific problem. I did tweak the neck on a melissa ethridge adamas 1/4-1/2 a turn to turn the action from good to GREAT.
Perhaps John or Kim in the service department will want to comment if they noted this as a flaw a common complaint of customers etc.
Darc
please inform us about the guitar craft and the use of super shallow balladeers. I think it will be inteesting to hear this perspective and your perspective on the increased tension for the guitar craft tuning |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Sam,
This is something that only happens in Atlanta |
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February 2002
Posts: 21
| my 12 string is an elite with a super-shallow cutaway bowl - I bought it used about a year back and it needed one tweak on the truss rod to change the action from pretty good to really good. I also own a 1988 Limited Edition, which is a super-shallow bowl and I have never needed to adjust the truss rod in the 10 years I've owned it (didn't even own a truss rod wrench for these and needed to buy the proper wrench to tweak the action on the 12 string lol). The 88 has survived all types of demented retuning/detuning experiments (including guitar craft), and always plays like a well set-up shred guitar. Granted, the acoustic sound is a little bit thinner than my Adamas I because of the bowl size, but plugged into my BBE acoustic preamp the 88 sure sounds good for performance or recording.
I have always wanted a 12 string Ovation, and after lucking into mine bumbled into a new SMT 12 at a local shop. While at least part of the difference is (again) the bowl size, I have to say the SMT really sounded a lot better and fuller to my ears. It also played quite a bit better - factory setup was better than what most luthiers can do with my electric guitars lol. Haven't sprung for one yet (you know how you always find something really cool right after you commit to something else? lol), but that will be my next 12 string when I am back in the market.
I'm only an hour from the factory, so that's probably not enough to cause a climatic change lol (although New Hartford can feel like Siberia at times - although I hear that they can actually get delivery pizza nowadays. will wonders never cease?) |
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February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | Alpep, it's funny you asked me for further info on GC re the use of the Balladeer. In fact I am personally confused on this topic. The recommended guitar for GC work was always the Ovation supershallow, cutaway Legend (model number 1867.)
When I first started to encounter the name "Balladeer", I thought it referred to a lower cost import version of the Legend. I had perhaps gotten the Balladeer monicker mixed up with "Celebrity", "Applause", etc. Now there is a whole new line of low cost models, with yet another name, to confuse me further.
So... what's a Balladeer?
The GC tuning (fifths is the simple explanation) is lower than standard on the 5th and 6th strings, higher on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. The result is a string tension that really projects for single note and cross picked passages, but is a bit more difficult (for me) to strum convincingly on.
As for this fixation on a single, standard guitar... This is probably one of the reasons that some people see GC as "cultish" or at least a little nerdy. In fact it's a matter of practicality. Most GC study and repertoire is based on ensemble playing. If you have, for instance, 10 guitarists playing a very technical piece together (and sometimes exchanging parts) it becomes important that their instruments project similarly (volume, tone, timbre.) It's also important that the size and shape of the instruments are similar if you want to discuss technique in any great detail. I strayed from the pack by buying an Elite, and I'm occasionally frustrated by a lower fret count on the lower strings, lesser overall volume, and fewer highs (rosewood vs ebony, epaulette vs center soundhole. Still, I absolutely love the guitar.)
Fripp once referred to the 1867 as the first acoustic he'd encountered that he could play with the same technique with which he approaches his electric. After exposure to GC, I look for electrics that I can play like my Ovation...
[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: darc ] |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Sam,
When I lived in CT I found every spring most of my guitars would get a slight bow in the necks and the rod would need to be backed off a quarted turn. In the fall when the humidity went away and the heat came on, tighten it back up. Deep bowl, SS, Hamer, Fender, didn't matter which. Florida doesn't do that, we're just dripping in humidity all the time!!!! At least we don't have to shovel it here! |
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March 2002
Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | since you guys are on neck setups-------
i have a beautiful 1982-8 collectors edition. unlike any of my other ovations, the action is high even though the neck is straight. i live in mexico and don't have enough faith in anyone here to work on it. i have done simple repairs in the past like bridge refastening and truss rod adjustments. the truss rod is only for keeping the neck straight isn't it? i have never done a neck reset, and would really like to make this guitar a super players guitar, i guess you refer to as a shredder, and not screw it up. a really pretty traditional guitar for those special gigs would be a nice way to see this guitar live on. any suggestions?
thanks, russ |
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December 2001
Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | the guitar neck needs a little relief in it so perfectly straight may be the problem. If you are not comfortable with twistng the rod take the bridge saddle out and see if there are any shims under there if so take them out you may be able to get the action down there. if not take the plung and twist the rod a quarter turn and see what happens if you fix it great if not nothing lost if you hear a snap then I did not tell you to adjust the rod yourself but to take it to a qualified tech |
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March 2002
Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | well i've twisted a few truss rod nuts in the past, but doesn't that just take the bend out of a neck? i planned on checking for shims under the bridge and going with some 009 or010 strings. this model as i'm sure you know has the adjustment inside of the guitar instead of like my old balladeer, where it under a truss rod plate on the head. any special tools req'd? i thought a tiny drop of 3 in 1 il on the threads couldnt hurt. what do you think? havent even had the strings off of this guitar yet.
i was surprised my 76 balladeer had an active pickup (takes a battery) and the 82 collector's edition doesnt. or perhaps i dont understand pickups etc all that well. that would be good new topic to slip in after someone hopefully answers the question about the pinnacle 12 strings. russ |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | The 82 collectors has a battery. |
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March 2002
Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | well, i'll be dipped!!! my old baladeer has the battery right out there for all to see and the inside of the 1982-8 is like a mercedes inside by comparison. i've never seen such attention to detail that little black box in the 1982-8 is first cabin and had an obviously dead duracell in it. the lid had been jammed so it wouldn't slide and i figures it was part of the stereo setup. the previous owner said it was passive and he owned it for 10 years i think. or am i getting pre amp and passive confused. i really need to bring up the pickup question as a new topic, but i'm off to pick up a new 9 v and re string!! man do i like this site! thanks VERY much
by the way there WAS a rake in the neck and there were 3 shims under the pickup. i think that is all of the adjustment i will need. i have only had this guitar for 2 weeks and it is fixing to become the guitar for when i gig in a shirt with buttons on it. russ |
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Super Shallow Bowl thoughts??
