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Location: On the road... | a
(Regarding the future of Ovation and lutherie)
All brands and types of guitars inherently have
strengths and weaknesses peculiar to their
construction and the materials used.
I have been playing Ovations for 25 years
and I think that their greatest strength
is their electric-acoustic sound.
That is why the Ovation motto is
"PLUG IT IN"..
I realize that many will disagree but
it's my opinion that Ovations cannot compete
with a quality solid wood guitar for the
'unplugged' sound (the Ovation weakness)..
I own 2 Ovations (USA -- 6 and 12 strings)
and 4 other acoustics (Gibson, Takamine,
Martin, and Cort).
So this opinion is not given without
comparison.
Maybe Ovation should be trying to get back
to the basics instead of building
'synthetic' guitars. Maybe they should make
a roundback from rosewood instead of plastic.
As far as the opinions expressed by others
on this board concerning Korean guitars
being low quality I don't know about
Ovation's because both of mine are USAs.
But I own 2 other Koreans (Epi and Cort)
and they are the best guitars I've ever
played. Takamines are made in Japan and
Korea also and they are excellent guitars.
So please don't judge all Korean luthiers
just because Ovation didn't hire me to
expedite their Korean plants QA/QC program.
I've owned 2 Gibson electrics that were made
in America (Lucille - {Nashville} $2100
and an ES-135 LE - {Memphis} $1000) and
they had quality control problems.
So we Americans no longer have a monopoly
on the art and science of lutherie.
Welcome to the new guitar order....
(Again it's just my opinion)
z |
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Location: SoCal | Johnny:
Welcome to the board. You're gonna have a good time here and will find that opinions are what make this site.
I don't necessarily agree with you on the sound of Ovations acoustically. I've got a 20 year old Elite that I've played next to almost everything and it has always held it's own. In a music store I finally found an Ovation Baladeer Special (satin finish, wood rosette, mid depth bowl) with new strings (usually on Ovations in stores, they are dead), and played it next to a 5 series Taylor. The Ovation sounded better. My Adamas 12 string sounds better unplugged than any other 12 I've ever heard.
My personal belief is that in the last 10 years, Ovation has made the decision to go for the "plugged in" market, and has abandoned the strictly acoustic market. Hence, cheaper material and shallower bowls. This is a marketing and financial decision, and quite frankly, it saddens me. They are also going for the less expensive market. Most Ovations cost less than Martins, Taylors etc.
I've played Ovations for 30 years (since the fall of 1972). At that time, they were known for their unique construction and sound. Very few were plugged in.
Ovations don't sound like Martins, but then they were never supposed to.
I'll get off my soapbox now. Any other opinions? |
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Location: Scotland | Well put. Ovations sound "different" to all wood guitars. whether that difference is better or worse is highly subjective & totally unquantifiable. I own several USA Ovations from the early '70's to current models. I also own a number of very tasty all-wood guitars, most of which stay in their cases. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Regarding the unplugged sound, I can tell you from years of studio experience that an acoustic ovation presents an engineer with a very well-behaved sound that requires minimum EQ at mixdown & sits in a complex mix easily. Try that with a pre-war D28.
Paul |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | johhny, you made several good points in your well written post. i feel ovation was the pioneer in rethinking guitar design and was very successful in designing instruments for the working and performing musician. i also feel when they started making guitars that were economical for entry level musicians it started to cause confusion among their customers. if compare some of the early straight acoustic ovations, that arent compromised by all of the electronics inside, they compare very favorably with anything that was out there in the same price range. and i feel, as a performing musician, thet they are by far more suited to the rigors of a traveling or performing musician. my ovations go from tropical coastal humidity to desert winters and hang in there. i have stopped traveling with my woodies which include a martin 0018 ny, and several custom instruments i had built here in mexico. of course a shallow bodied ovation cant compare to a deep huge bodied martin or taylor. it is like comparing a sports car to a 4 wheel drive. each will get you from x to y, but each was designed with a specific purpose in mind.
when ovation entered the entry level market with as did martin with their sigma line things started to change. unfortunatly there wasnt a clear distinction for a purchaser except with the applause line in ovations case. i used to think any ovation product i picked up was going to be a pleasure to play. that isn't the case now with some kaman instruments with buy it now on e bay for under $200 new. this web site helps both the novice and professional musician to make a more educated choice. considering materials, manufacturing and shipping costs as well as advertising and distributor markups i am not surprised that an entry level celebrity or applause doesnt have the quality of a less production oriented guitar. my own personal take on this is that celebrities shold be called just that or incorporated into the applause line, and not be a model of the ovation line. you can call a chevy a caddy, but it is still a chevy. there is a market for both, and room for variations in each line.
i agree with you whole heartedly, that just because something is made in the USA that it is good, or that because it was made in the third world it is bad. i own a very fine classical guitar i bought from perhaps the most reknowned mexican guitar makig family, rubio. this guitar was appraised at close to $3000. in the same city block in paracho where i bought it there were playable guitars for less than $20. most guitar manufacturers manufacture in the third world to improve their financial bottom line using cheap unskilled labor and high volume production techniques. i have only met a few skilled luthiers in my entire life but couldnt even begin to estimate the number of laborers i have met capable of carrying out a production line job. i suspect that given the same materials, tools and time a korean luthier could produce an as equally fine instrument as their american counterpart. there is a night and day difference between a craftsman taking pride in his work, and someone who only puts tuners on a production guitar and needs to meet production quotas to keep their job.
i have never had the pleasure of playing an adamas or some of ovations high end guitars, but no doubt my opinion of ovations best would click up a few notches. but in matters of taste there is no right or wrong; what sounds good and works well for me might not suit other players.
so i dont make a book out of this post, i will say in summation that if you haven't been on the cover of the rolling stone, and can't afford to buy a first class seat for your guitar on the airplane, one of ovations good guitars is hard to beat for the price. they are hands down my choice for a playing venue. i never leave home without one.
[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: musicamex ] |
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Location: NJ | I agree with both Pauls.
The good/bad/ugly of the "unplugged sound" is HIGHLY subjective.
My opinion (for what it's worth):
While the "unplugged" Ovation MAY not be as LOUD to a comparative all-wood guitar, the sound (to my ears) has tendency to be warmer, more "rounded" and less "twangy".
I happen to like that.
Last April when I went into a studio with my band to make a demo CD to give to local club owners, the engineer got a "stiffie" when he saw my '76 Custom Balladeer! When we finally got to adding in the acoustic guitar parts, I asked him where he wanted me to "plug in". He scoffed at me and gently yanked the cable from the back of my guitar. "Trust me" he said. We did everything with a strategically placed exterior mic and it sounded awesome! He told my bandmates in the control room with him that he would rather record a mic'd Ovation over a Martin, Taylor, or anything else. Again, another person's opinion that happens to coincide w/mine.
I also have a '76 Adamas prototype that is strictly acoustic.
THAT thing is LOUD! When I play with my Martin-based cohorts I have to "hold back" or else run the risk of "ticking 'em off". I normally keep it tuned to "double drop D" tuning and it sounds like a Gregorian choir! When fingerpicked, the sound hangs in the air like a mist. A good, hard strum hits you in the face like that last "boom" at the fireworks.
I also agree that Ovation is directing too much of it's energies in producing a varied line of inexpensive guitars for electric players that need a "second" for the occasional live acoustic tune and offering a finite, limited choice (when compared to Taylor, Martin, RainSong and the like) to those who are actual ACOUSTIC GUITARISTS.
Last month I had the extreme pleasure of meeting Al Stewart (anyone remember him?) after a show at a small club in Chester, NY. One of my all time favorite albums is his "Rhymes in Rooms" which is an entirely acoustic live recording with guitarist Peter White. Some absolutely BRILLIANT guitar work done strictly on a pair of Ovations.
While we were talking I asked why a few years ago had he had switched from Ovations to Taylors.
His response was basiclly that Lawrence Juber (a huge Taylor proponent) had convinced him that Ovations were "rubbish". Upon my respectfully arguing my opinion, he stated that Taylors simply offered a better array of good sounding, varied guitars (that and probably a better "endorsement deal" - but I didn't go there).
The next thing that I want is a nice 12 string (I've never owned one). I have this inherent loyalty to "go Ovation". I've even pondered trading my Adamas for a really nice Ovation 12, but I haven't the heart to let it go (there's a long story to my getting it). There are just so many really nice sounding wooden 12's out there that are actually even less expensive than some Ovations, it makes me tend to "falter".
The majority of the new Ovations out in the stores now just have that "cheap" look and feel to them. There's no "heft", no "substance". They remind me of the Applause line when they first came out. It's just disheartening.
In the end, I suppose I'll just "hang in" and wait for a good deal on an older Ovation 12 for a good price.
Old Loyalties Die Hard. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Boy you guys write alot!!!!
Like all guitars there are great acoustic sounding Ovations and there are the others. Ovation was designed to be a great Acoustic guitar. We acomplished this. BUT picture it like ice cream, Martin, Ovation, Collings, etc... they are all Haagen Daas. Which flavor do you like?? This makes a big difference.
The "plug it in" campaign has taken Ovation to a place where the acousticness of the instruments is forgotten. Before I left I thought the ad campaign should be "Plug it in / Play it straight" and focus on the fact that there is another side to the guitars that doesn't require a plug. That hasn't happened. Marketing can justify what they're doing and they're not wrong and so it goes. It's just too bad to leave half a loaf sitting on the table. |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | Bill, i'll be off these crutches in 2 more weeks, and promise to burn my soap box along with them. i have so much stuff to catch up on that my posts will be shorter after that. it just shows you how much we appreciate some of the guitars you and your dad made. |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | I have been a shopping fool the last 3 weeks looking / playing Ovations. I have a Martin D1R and for the $$$ It is a great guitar. I played a very nice 12 Legend today that will go for the same price tag. $1,000 with case. I don't know why but I feel I must be very careful when playing my Martin... I know why it is fragile.
My "new" Ovation will sit out on a stand and be played. My Martin sits in a case and is "pampered". I like / love the sound of both. I bought the Martin because, well everyone wants to own one... Well I own one. Now I want to play an Ovation.
PS My first (adult) guitar was a 1975 Applause. The 21 yr. old has it now and it still surprizes his band with its acoustic sound. And it can, and does go anywhere...
I can't justify with my playing the $2,000 + guitars... That said I've played a lot of Martins and Taylors the last few weeks and none have changed my Ovation mind.
48yr. old (closet) guitar player.
Woz |
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Location: NJ | my mother always told me that is why they make chocolate AND vanilla....
I would be a liar if I said the only guitars I own are ovation. I own others and play them frequently. I do think ovation guitars are special though. I got an adamasII delivered the other day took it out of the box hit a couple of chords that were just massive and from the other room my wife yells "hey Al what guitar was THAT!!"
The problem with most import lines is that they are looked at as the red headed stepchild. I think the Korean ovation guitars is as good or better than any of the other import stuff out there today. There are always exceptions to the rule. I ordered a few made in china acoustics from a distributor I deal with and for guitars I can sell at 100 bucks they were stellar. do I expect them to be around in 10 years or to sound great absolutely not.
I use my guitars like a painter uses a paint brush and different hues. Each one has a place and is used when the opportunity permits. |
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Location: SoCal | This is why I love this website. Everybody has an opinion. Is Johnny, or Russ, or Al, or Sam, etc., wrong? Hell no. Am I wrong? Only when I argue with my wife in which case I can save myself time and apologize right away.
Somewhere in the last 5-7 years the decision was made to essentially abandan the high end Ovation market and make profit off of the less expensive models. Ovation also (with the exception of Melissa Ethridge) also decided not to pursue the purely acoustic player, but instead to go after the electric player. As has been pointed out here in the past, it's not a bad decision, and from a finance point of view, it's probably paid off.
But I honestly believe that they have let a huge market go and that even today, they are not pursuing acoustic players the way that Taylor, Larivee, Martin and others are. I read in an interview with Richie Sambora, that he stopped endorsing Ovations and started endorsing Taylors because Ovation didn't seem to care about him anymore.
Damn, but I hate to see things like this in regard to a company that I care about. |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | i haven't seen another topic that generates such a response from us loyal ovation players. you probably wouldn't get this kind of response from the hells angels if you told 'em rice burners were better than harleys!!!! it really is great to be getting to know you guys--------so what should our colors look like?? LOL |
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Location: NJ | would it surprise you to find out I have an 86 honda magna v 45 and that I lust for an old bmw or indian....... |
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Location: Maryland | I really do enjoy all this input, pro and con about Ovation. I have and have had lots of guitars. My choice to play will always be the 12 string first. My Adamas SMT does not sound as "chimey" as my wood guitars but man does it
have a sound all its own!! Kinda depends on what
sound you are looking for. I have a friend that
doesn't like it's sound so he bought a Martin.
His Martin cost more but I wouldn't trade him.
I have never enjoyed playing any guitar as much
as I have the SMT 12 ...It sounds fantastic unplugged. Guess it's all in what kind of sound you want. I mean there are some people out there that aren't satisfied with a string's "pure sound"
they actually go to a lot of trouble to distort
it's sound....can you imagine that??!!! LOL
[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: JT3 ] |
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Location: Zion, Illinois | I own a Gibson J-200 I bought back in 1973. If you want to see a complete review goto www.harmony-central.com. I also have a Glen Campbell Delux 12-string I bought a year later. Recently I bought an Ovation Custom Elite for $600 off of E-Bay.
The quality of the American made Gibson and the repair work Gibson performed on it, is very poor. Sound wise, for a big guitar it has small sound, even with good substain in the highs, but very quiet and disapointing in the lows. The action is high and there's nothing I can do about it without major work.
The Custom Legend sound great, very deep bass, ringing highs. Does it sound like a Martin, no because it's an Ovation. But I love the sound, so it doesn't matter.
My dream is to get my hands on an early Adamas some day.
Bradley |
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Location: Maryland | I had a 2000 Custom Legend 12 and I would have to
say that it was a fantastically crafted guitar!
The folks at Ovation are very skilled to say the least. It sounded as good as it looked but it
did need to be set up. With the center sound hole it has a more "conventional" sound. On the other hand, my Adamas 1598 doesn't have all the
"fancies" the Legend has, and the sound is just
not the same (I'm talking unplugged). The SMT
12 has a very fast action and the sound is very
balanced but if comparing one against the other
the SMT sounds a bit " muffled". But if one
seriously listens they can hear that the SMT projects a very pure/clean sound. No wonder it
"rules" in the recording studio. No doubt there
are other GREAT guitars and I have a few but I
have decided to put future $ in Ovation/Adamas.
When I do plug in I use an AR Acoustics ProVerb 65 and so far I have not heard the Adamas sound
any better thru any (small) amp. I think the
"ProVerb 65" is a little hard to find. |
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| I built a ROUNDBACK out of Brazilian Rosewood . Sounds great do you have 19000 dollars to spend I dought it. PERIOD |
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Location: SoCal | Did you put this guitar up for sale on ebay last year?
Paul |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | i would like to see a photo of your brazilian rosewood roundback with some more details. is there a link to your shop or photos you could post luthier 444? |
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| I am sorry I couldnt reply promptly, L have been away . I did put the guitar on Ebay to see what would happen,.. I own Ovations and I am very comfortable with the round back so I built a wooden copy for specific tones. Its not an Ovation though. I dont have any pictures right now I can send some at a later date maybe. The last thing I want to do is step on Ovations toes . A wooden roundback is hardly practical.
No didnt sell Ebay yanked it.
[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: luthier444 ] |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I doubt it would step on any toes. Alvarez Yairi had one years ago that was in production. It was strips of wood built like the old potato bug mandolines except it was to the BigO shape. I think it was around $2000.
It would be interesting to compare the sound of yours to one of the original Ovations made from Brazilian fiberglass. You said it was on Ebay, did it sell? |
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| Hey bill how are you doing. Saw Rick welden yesterday. He is looking really good. Anyway Its funny , It has Ovation qualities all the way. But there is just something about Brazilian Rosewood. It actually sounds a lot like the Q but it is not as loud. My guitar is what some people say Compressed. |
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Location: Shelton, Washington, USA | i may as well stick my nose in here, too. this is a good discussion. i've been playing for about 35 years. in 1978, i played and bought my first ovation... a '78 balladeer. i still have Frances. She's been around the world a couple times. Over the years. i've picked up a 74 Artist, an 84 Ultra 12 and a 2000 Elite Special. As a working musician, what I have noticed is the consistency of sound with Ovation. When I switch from one guitar to another on stage, minimal adjustments are required, if any, to maintain the balance with other instruments. I appreciate that (so do the guys in the band)
I can't begin to compare Ovations to other brand high-end guitars.... I haven't played them enough to form an educated opinion. The other guys in the band play them..... and I love the sound. But it's not the sound I want for me...
Does that make sense?
I like Ovation. They are comfortable. I can't see myself with anything else.... but I wouldn't expect anybody to drop their HD-28 and switch to an Adamas on my say-so....
think how boring music would be if all the instruments were the same.....
thanks for lettin' me stick my ignorant nose in.... |
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Location: NJ | My sentiments EXACTLY, Jim! |
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Location: Scotland | I remember seeing this guitar, it looked very well-made. Any idea why ebay "yanked it"? I can't see that it would infringe any of their regulations |
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| AMEN JIMINOS , What I did was I said it was a clone and used the name ovation name in there somewhere. Ovation clone .It was proper to pull it.
[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: luthier444 ]
[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: luthier444 ] |
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Ovations strengths and weaknesses
