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| Random quote: "Got time to breathe, got time for music." --Briscoe Darling. |
 Line 6 Variax
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | I'm going to bring this subject up again in a different way, as nobody commented on my original post. I think there is a deep philisophical question in a guitar that imitates various guitars by sampling. Have we gone beyond guitars that sound a certain way because of their unique characteritics, material, pickups, strings electronics, etc.. Everybody here should read the review in Guitar player and see if we are slipsliding away to where the guitar sound comes from a CHIP. If you can dial in the sound you want, then we are all wasting our time. Install a CHIP, and you have an Adamas, program it and you have a Glen Campbell Bluebird, a great sounding Balladeer comes right out of the CHIP, just turn the switch to the right setting. DOES OVATION HAVE A PATENT ON IT'S GUITAR SOUNDS? Line 6 can make a cheaper and better sounding Ovation with $2 CHIPS! Bailey (the future is bleak) | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Bailey, someone asked about the Variax a while ago & I commented on it. Look at the post called Ovation v. Rick from May 6th. The Variax doesn't use samples, it digitally "models" the sounds of the guitars. Some of the sounds on the Variax are superb, unfortunately most of the acoustic models are piss-poor to my ears. Plus just like a digital model of a tube amp doesn't have the tactile response of the real thing, when you dial up an acoustic guitar model on the Variax no matter what you think of the sound, it just doesn't "feel" right. None of that is going to stop me owning one though, as the Variax is a great recording tool | ||
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| musicamex |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 873 Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | last winter we were setting up to play our sunday gig when this guy walked up with one of these line 6 jobbies in meat wagon black. he let me play the whole gig with it, and i must admit it was fun to watch the audience reaction to sound changes, and i enjoyed playing with it in a real life format. however as far as a good quality instrument goes i wasn't impressed. it had a gimick feel to me, and for what i do i'll stick to the guitars that have always given me consistant and predictable sounds i want and are a dream to play. my fellow musicians and hopefully the audience know me for "my" guitars and "my" sound. i dont want that to change. i respect paul t's opinion re recording (and just about everything he posts) though, and i have a casio digital guitar to add a little wierd touch to home recordings. i am lightyears behind paul in understanding or making recordings, and playing in general (verified by moodypi's account of his time with paul). a few years more of refinement might make this a valuable studio tool. this line 6 makes me think of our harp player. he is relatively new to performing and became obsessed with finding that special elusive sound with different harmonicas, amps, preamps microphones, ad infinitum. he was good but not hot. he became a topic of band humor, and i finally said to him one day, if you can't find the sound IN YOU, all the gear in the world won't make it. in my book, if a harp player doesn't reach deep inside it all sounds like "old mc donald had a farm". i suggested he give up the excuses, and the gear obsession, use that time to practice, and stick to his best mic and harp on stage till he got the sound he was looking for. now, about a year later, that's all he uses. he gets more leads and the audience is responding to him more too. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Good point Russ, good music is not about gear. Great players will make great music with anything, look at some of the "junk" used by the likes of Cooder & Lindley. Equally a mediocre player doesn't sound better just because he has a bunch of state of the art kit | ||
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| musicamex |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 873 Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | ah, there's that kit word again. i'll have to use it at the brit table at the club. actually i get a proper ass chewing for calling them brits. they tell me with abundant expletives that they are ENGLISH. we sing them the battle of 1814. great bunch, and responsible for a good percentage of the bar take. lots of your countrymen here. they bring me gifts from home like single malt, stilton, "tinned" kippers and the like. good stuff. if they aren't in the audience it just isn't the same. | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15686 Location: SoCal | Temp: So I guess you're trying to tell me that all my Ovations aren't going to make me sound better. Damn, time to go work on the Bm7 chord again. | ||
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| musicamex |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 873 Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | wow bm7!! you doing russian oprea or something? we'er still honing our 12 bar in e. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Russ You are totally right about gear vs. talent or practice. First get good then get the gear. I posted this topic from terrible feelings of guilt. When I read about the Variax, I, like Paul T., really, really wanted one. After some reappraisel of my thoughts, it came to me that I would go through all the variations, maybe pick one I liked on the first day, then park the thing and do my usual nightly relaxation stint with my beloved acoustics, and maybe my Viper. The damned thing would then collect dust until one of my kids or grandkids took an interest in it. Talk about being in a rut, I am so committed to old time stuff that all these gadgets just sat there with their batteries slowly moldering into destructive swelling. Damn, I still want one! Bailey | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7251 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | The big thing with modeling of samples that misses the mark somewhat is that much of a guitar's sound is personal to the guitar, not just the model of guitar, but an individual guitar. Take the idea of playing an electric into a ROckman acoustic simulator. Ok, you can get an Adamas kind of sound very easily.... until you listen close. Is it an Adamas with a resonant freq of 87 or 98. Also, although the character changes as you move up the scale, does it change like the Acoustic that is being simulated, unfortunately no. It's being changed by the guitar doing the input. In this example you could actually play notes on a UKII through an acoustic simulator, sounding like an Adamas, but playing notes that would be off the Adamas (or any other) acoustic guitar scale. Another approach is using samples, but then you end up with the problems that are encountered in MIDI... you really need to program each note one at a time to at least get it to sound "real" because you can't pick every note the same way. The simulators have their place in performance when carrying 18 guitars and 10 amps for a gig just isn't an option. But if you want an Adamas sound on your recording... you should use an Adamas to record and use the money for the simulator on an Antares pitch correction unit or software :) | ||
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| musicamex |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 873 Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | lots of good points here. i guess my playing/performing isn't complicated enough to warrant lots of different sounds. what i hope to achieve is a sound i am known for. you hear certain musicians for their style and sound, and you know who they are. i don't mean to compare my abilities with the following, but to make a point about sound and style. you can recognize bb king, buddy guy, santana, slowhand, kotkee and on and on by their sound style. i cant say that about allot of recent music, especially since allot of it is canned and or processed. i have played with my gear allot using lots of effects and with my earphones on. my wife kathleen, who could only hear the unprocessed siginal (i couldn't), interupted me once to tell me "i like it better when you are playing music." that's how some of these bands with no talent are successful. i'm satisfied with being in tune, in time, (on time too), in balance with the group, and amplified enough to reach the crowd, but not to drive them off. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7251 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | A musicians "sound" isn't necessarily done my the musician, but I know exactly what you mean. Playing style also affects the effects too and the "signature" can be VERY subtle. I thinking with the amount you play, if you were to just rig-up, and start noodling or playing something of your own creation, someone listening (other than yourself) would probably be able to describe your sound and you may find they think it's unique already with hints of I have heard that SRV, EVH and Jimi are/were cats that could plug into ANY amp, and they still sound like themsleves. Tom Scholz when not playing through ROckman gear just sounds like any other guitar player playing a Les Paul into a Marshall. I was disappointed when Buck Dharma swapped out his Rockman gear cause the whole dyanmic of the band changed, but due to his style, it was still a unique sound, just a different one than it used to be. I have heard Santana play in person, and his style comes through, but it sounds very little like the records because again that signature Rockman Compressor sound that was used on most of his stuff. You probably notice a thread here... I am familiar with some of the bands that use or used the ROckman 1/2-rack gear in the 80's. ZZ-Top I have never heard live, but the combination of their style and Rockman compression makes that "Tush" sound also. My point is that as you can see I've mentioned several artists that use different gear that sound completely different, and sound like themselves when not using their "signature" gear. I have also listed several artists that you the SAME gear and sound totally different from each other. The key is their playing styles and the combination of the gear. I found out many years into playing that Buck Dharma was using basically the same setup as I was (ok, I was useing the same as him) but it was not planned that way, nor do I sound anything like him. I achieved my sound over experimention with textures and my style (or lack of it) over years, and just ended up with similar gear. | ||
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| musicamex |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 873 Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | good points miles. i guess it is getting harder all of the time to find that special sound that is completely our own without sounding at least a little like someone else. so many have gone before us. i guess we talk like where we grew up with hints of changes we made and speakers we admired along the way. and ya know--------- i really have so very little experience with the gear that goes between the amp and guitar and with post recording processing, that i might fall in love with some good gear and a tweaked up sound. it probably wouldn't be necessary for what i do. it's all pretty basic early electric sound we are after. but i always seem to enjoy playing around with new stuff. one of the things important to me in particular is the less i have to setup and break down, the happier i am and the less the old lumbar hurts when i finally hit the sheets. i have a simple rugged crate 65w amp with three channels, a built in tuner, and some effects i only use to amuse the band. i wouldnt have bought the one with effects but it had the tuner. i love that tuner. now i am "captain standard" at all of the gigs. during high season we set up and breakdown sometimes 8 times in a week, and simplicity is really important to me. everything fits on a simple cart, and stays on it except for the guitar. i'm sure this has a great influence on my opinions on sound. maybe someday i'll have the opportunity to sit down with you or another ofc member and learn more about the possibilities. but for right now, i have had two days off in a row and i'm digging just being here on line with you guys. more lightbulbs------------ | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Russ and Miles You guys are getting awful close to my unsophisticated opinion, that the player makes the sound, not the guitar. All the so-called stellar guitars were the result of a stellar player. I, in my years of playing, have never heard an applause for an instrument, but have heard thunderous applause for a well played song. | ||
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| Frobs |
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Joined: December 2002 Posts: 6 Location: England | For me, I like gear that makes me want to play. I'm not bothered if its old, new, digital or made from rolled up newspaper. The variax debate is a little like the debate of vinyl vs cd's. Quite a few people thought cd's sounded electric, digitial - too good. Same as some people think Ovations sound plasticky (when the find out the back is made of plastic usually). From the samples I've heard on the Variax website, the Line6 sounds are mostly indistiguishable from the real thing - but I have little chance of playing the real thing. So the variax is probably the only way I'll ever be able to make those sounds. But of course the playing experience is also about the feel of the guitar in your hand and the vibrations back into your belly. It is also about the look of the thing, and the variax obviously cant turn itself into a les Paul or a Martin. So I think that people should salute the variax for what it is - which is a very good idea, well executed. It has its down sides like anything else, but one thing it does, is move the game on another big step, and certainly gets people debating. And that is no bad thing in itself. Personally I dont like snobs, and some people will critisise the variax just because its like a copy of a Rolex watch ! I am reluctant to try out a Variax in case I HAVE to buy one as a result. Last time I did that was with my Elite, and I still havnt heard the last of it from the missus. And my Elite is going with me to the grave !! Frobs | ||
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| BruDeV |
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Joined: January 2003 Posts: 1498 Location: San Bernardino, California | This reminds me of the debate about MIDI. My basic take on the Variax (and MIDI) is that it's a good tool but a poor substitute for the real thing. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | I'm just going to set in a corner and play my acoustic and myViper and hide from the technological swamp that is waiting to swallow my ethereal playing soul and tie it into a mummified victim that will be discovered in future milleniams when they investigate what happened to "real" music. I'll be waiting at the INN AT The END OF THE UNIVERSE. Bailey | ||
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