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Location: Utah | We've all heard the comments about Ovations being cheap crappy sounding guitars, and the reason is probably word of mouth handed down from someone who tried a POS imported Applause. This weekend, an audience member standing behind my wife at Kaki's show was telling his girlfriend that Hamer is cheap POS and he didn't understand why Kaki would be playing it.
Not being an MBA in marketing, it makes me wonder if it is counterproductive for a guitar company to make cheap beginner level guitars. Someone who thinks all Hamers are $199 imports can kill a lot of sales! The guy who trashes Ovation all over the internet or behind the counter at a music store can cost a lot of sales.
Maybe it is all the other way around, where the bread and butter is the cheap import product, so the good stuff is gravy that we get to enjoy. Dunno, just wondering. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Almost every guitar company makes some cheap models. As long as there is a market, why not? I do think they should do something to make them (visually) easier to tell apart for those who are not "in the know". |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | The logic is that if your first cigarette is a Marlboro then you'll stick with the brand till you die. You'll start with the red then try a menthol and as you get old switch to mediums and eventually lights to take care of your health.
It's ALL corporate marketing. |
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Posts: 3969
| Tough question. When you're, say, Martin there's enough brand recognition that enough, typically young and broke, entry-level buyers will seek out the cheap (in all respects) models.
Then there are the boutique builders who cater to the older crowd who have more disposable income & appreciate a superbly made and sounding instrument after having played crap ones.
Ovation's in a tough spot in those regards. Sell enough of the cheaper Asian versions to make a profit, pay your employees, support R&D and build the higher end models for the fewer discriminating buyers, but sacrifice widespread respect for your brand with inferior sounding cheapies, or become a boutique maker & charge megabucks for the few guitars you do manage to sell.
Maybe FMIC should take the Ovation name off the imports, just brand them as Celebs - period - and push the Ovation and Adamas names for their material, build and sound quality, especially as almost indestructible gigging/touring guitars. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I was reading my guitar history book last night and they said that in the 70's the japanese started to make decent guitars for less than the made in the USA brands, so in response the american makers, opened up their own low end lines overseas, witness, the squire brand, the MIM fenders etc.
Much better to have a piece of all segments, then just targeting the high end. It's survival. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Originally posted by an4340:
Much better to have a piece of all segments, then just targeting the high end. It's survival. Exactly. Also, not everyone has a need for a "high end" guitar. I picked up a Mexican J-Bass last year because I wanted to play some bass, but not enough to justify spending the money on an American one. I ended up with a decent instrument that suits my needs without breaking the bank. |
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Posts: 4028
Location: Utah | Originally posted by John B:
Originally posted by an4340:
Much better to have a piece of all segments, then just targeting the high end. It's survival. Exactly. Also, not everyone has a need for a "high end" guitar. I picked up a Mexican J-Bass last year because I wanted to play some bass, but not enough to justify spending the money on an American one. I ended up with a decent instrument that suits my needs without breaking the bank.
Ovation, though, has a street reputation based on people only playing the lowest end products. Hamer is so expensive that the only ones anybody ever sees in a store or being played by a college age kid in a band is a cheap import.
Ergo, the mass public image of Ovation and Hamer is being driven by the lowest end product, not the highest end. Ovation is further hampered by the clear distinction of the plastic round back and the unique headstock. Every plastic round back guitar is an "OVATION", regardless if it says Applause, Celebrity, or Adamas on the headstock.
It was shocking to hear someone say that Hamers are the lowest cheapest POS guitars. We've all heard that about Ovations, too.
It seems that Ovation and Hamer originally built a reputation of having unique and excellent instruments, known by only a discriminating upper scale part of the market. They then leveraged that reputation into marketing cheap instruments to the masses. Which flipped things upside down to where their reputation is that they build cheap crap marketed to the masses, and they have to work hard to sell to the mid and upper scale of the market. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | I agree with you, but that also has to do with the consumer's knowledge. Someone who doesn't know any better couldn't tell the difference between Fender's American products and the Mexican ones. If you walk into Guitar Center, there are about 100 Mexican Strats right up front and you have to search for the American ones. My guess is that they make a good profit on the lower end stuff, and they figure that someone who wants the better models will seek them out. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | If you compare the SOUND of a Celebrity to the sound of any other low-priced guitar, you will find that the Celebrity is a MUCH better sounding guitar. Fender has a "name", but their acoustic guitars are terrible. The same with low-end Epiphones, low-end Yamahas, just about any brand you can think of. If a kid starts out on a Celebrity, you can bet that when the time comes for a more expensive guitar, nothing but an O will do.
As far as reputation goes, anybody who has played guitar for any length of time knows that ALL companies have a range of prices and quality. Does someone who hears a Jasmine think that means all Takamines are lousy? Do people who get their hands on an unplayable Squire pronounce all Fenders as junk? Face it, there are closed minded people like Dr. Dave who could listen to Mikes blind sound test, choose an O as the best sounding, and STILL hate Ovations. So what? There are always going to be fools in this world, and they are only hurting themselves. |
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Location: Atlanta, GA. | The 1st guitar I bought was a CC11 Celebrity. Acoustic only and sounded great for what I wanted it for.
On the headstock was the Celebrity decal, and the label in the bowl stated "Celebrity by Ovation".
When did they change the headstock decal to Ovation? |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | How insecure do you have to be to give a damn what people think of your guitar, your shoes, your taste in music?
Those who matter, don't mind.
Those who mind, don't matter.
Winston Churchill |
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Posts: 4028
Location: Utah | I'm not worried about what people think of my guitar. I'm thinking about the financial returns to Ovation, and whether they'll be building high end guitars long into the future. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | With not much but a gut feeling, I don't believe the USA Ovations could exist without the profit from the 1000's of imported and entry level Ovations sold.
It seemed pretty apparent when visiting the Factory that any USA Ovation we buy is a freak'n bargain. I can't imagine, with all the people, handwork, and equipment involved, that there is any real profit in a USA Built Ovation sold at the prices they sell them. But they shore up the brand. They are the carrot at the end of the stick for those that must start out with a guitar under $300.
I think the "List" price of most USA Ovations are closer to what they really should be selling for, and still on the low side of that. When I'm ready to buy I'm glad they aren't, but that's not the point.
So along with getting brand recognition out there, I think the "cheap guitars" are a necessity to help keep the price of the high-end models within reach. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I think VERY few large guitar makers could survive if they didn't have the revenue stream from the lower priced instruments. Lexus would never exist if it weren't for the gazillion Toyota Corolla's that get sold.
The problem is that everyone can tell from across the farmyard if the car coming down the road is a Corolla or a Lexus. Not so with Ovation - every freaking guitar looks more or less the same to the untrained eye. Same with Fender Strats and stuff like that. So naturally the guy watching Kaki play an Adamas can't tell that it's any different than the Celebrity he just played and hated at GC.
Ovation has been in business for 42 years and as far as I can tell they sell every damn guitar they build. So other than not stroking the egos of OFC members, I'm not really sure there is a problem.
Dave |
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Location: East Tennessee | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Ovation has been in business for 42 years and as far as I can tell they sell every damn guitar they build. So other than not stroking the egos of OFC members, I'm not really sure there is a problem.
Dave Dave,
You're right they sell what they make and pay the bills with some left over for R & D.
It is The "Music Business". |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Awhile back I saw Kim Simmons of Savoy Brown at the Portland Blues Festival...
He was telling a story about his first guitar while playing a $97 First Act Wal-Mart special that he bought in a moment of sentimentality. It sounded good too...
The first guitar that I actually BOUGHT was a $97 Target special. You buy what you can afford.
Originally posted by g8r:
Maybe FMIC should take the Ovation name off the imports, just brand them as Celebs - period - and push the Ovation and Adamas names for their material, build and sound quality, especially as almost indestructible gigging/touring guitars. G8r, two of the best sounding Celebrity's that I have owned were older models that said 'Celebrity' on the headstock. I liked 'em, and the people I sold them to liked them.
But when the 'Entry Level' USO's were going for $1000 and a new Celebrity is $300 (and it's your Mom's money) the beginner is gonna get the Celebrity.
I would agree that they oughta go back to saying what they are on the Headstock, Celebrity, Applause, Matrix, Ultra, Whatever...
[Cheap Takamines say 'G series' or Jasmine on the headstock] |
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Posts: 3618
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | I think that most people just starting out playing don't see a lot of difference in the cheapos and the mid-to-high end guitars, regardless of the brand. I would guess that they probably make up a very large portion of the new guitar sales market. Although it bothers me a bit that so many people have underated USA Ovation instruments out of their ignorance, but as was mentioned earlier ... that makes it easier for me to snag up a bunch of good guitars. I say buy em' while you can, because eventually people will catch on to the secret. |
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Posts: 698
Location: Cork, Ireland | Originally posted by cholloway:
The 1st guitar I bought was a CC11 Celebrity. Acoustic only and sounded great for what I wanted it for.
On the headstock was the Celebrity decal, and the label in the bowl stated "Celebrity by Ovation".
When did they change the headstock decal to Ovation? Interestingly Ovation branding at all appears on my Applause, just 'A Kaman Music Product' on the label inside |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | This dialogue pretty much applies to everything in life . . . tools, automobiles, cookware, power equipment, breakfast cereal, coffee, metal yard furniture, outdoor grills, etc. In some areas, we might never consider anything but the very best. In others, we compromise and go for the less expensive. In the end, you generally get what you pay for. |
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Posts: 106
Location: UK | ProfessorB said:-
"In the end, you generally get what you pay for."
I'd say 'not often enough'.
Fact is many high end brands do charge an 'extra' for the name.
Take something like a Gucci wristwatch. Gucci is a fashion house. They make a fancy looking bracelet but inside the watch is a real 'swiss' movement - oh yes, you can almost hear the geisha girls yodeling in the foothills of mount Fuji.
There's a story I heard not sure if it's true - When Maxda first introduced the RX7 into the USA nobody bought it. So, they announced a 'new improved' model (marketing speak for 'made a tiny change to it') and increased the price to bring it into the same price bracket as the porsche924 and then suddenly they couldn't make enough of them.
As I said, I don't know if that's true - if it isn't then it most certainly is true for many other products. We're basically suckers for a big price tag.
My ___________* is better than yours because it cost more.
* = insert item of your choice here
Of course this isn't 'always' the case. But often is. |
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Posts: 6992
Location: Jet City | Originally posted by Mauvais Beal:
The logic is that if your first cigarette is a Marlboro then you'll stick with the brand till you die. You'll start with the red then try a menthol and as you get old switch to mediums and eventually lights to take care of your health.
It's ALL corporate marketing. In 1982 I bought my first guitar, an Ovation.
Looking at my guitared walls, I think Beal may have something here in this logic. Though when I smoked, I think I changed brands 4 or 5 times.
As for the idiot that said Hamers are cheap, there will never be a product made that won't be criticized by some unknowledgeable twit.
I myself think Strats are an overrated POS. See? I'm my own example twice in this post. |
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Location: SoCal | Ian, the Mazda story isn't true. It was a hit from day one.
But the price issue often does hold true. When people pay more, they think they're getting more quality. Look at Snailor. They make a nice $1000 guitar that they sell for $2500 and people snap them up..... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Mazda had a good ad for the RX7, showing an outline of it and the 924 with comparable stats and then the huge disparity in price. The 924 wasn't all that popular among Porsche snobs, so Mazda did a great job of showing you could get Porsche performance at a Mazda price. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I always thought the problem for the RX7 was that gearheads never really embraced the rotary engine design. Like Tucker, it may have been ahead of its time. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
When people pay more, they think they're getting more quality. I also think "bragging rights" factor in more than we'd like to think it does. While on one hand someone may brag about the "bargain price" they paid for something, when it comes to answering "what's that thing worth" it's a whole different story.
Bringing Hamer into the mix, well there's a whole 'nother topic. With Ovation, there is at least an argument over tone. Some like it, some don't. Hamer however, builds some of the best guitars available and they essentially give them away unlike PRS.
Ovation is another matter. While it's nice to stick the roots of a company creating the best guitars for affordable prices, Adamas needs a "flagship" guitar. Others have said this too. They need the PRS Dragon of Adamas guitars. An Adamas that streets at $10,000.
Doesn't matter if they ever have to build one, they need to make it available in the catalog. I'd bet someone would order it, but it would be the carrot at the end of the stick. I think it would make a difference. |
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Should O even make cheap guitars?
