| ||
| The Ovation Fan Club | ||
| ||
| Random quote: "Jazz... isn't that just a series of mistakes disguised as musical composition?” - David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap |
 Blues 101
| View previous thread :: View next thread | |
| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
Mr. Ovation |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7211 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Well I was born and raised in the North, and I only witnessed a kind of subtle racism. It wasn't really racist, just uncomfortable situations. Like when I went to Highschool, one year a Black family moved to town. No one disliked them, but as they were the only Black family in town, they obviously drew attention. However, as recently as 16 years ago, we had to get "premission" so that our black keyboard player could play a well known CLub in Anapolis, MD and as recently as 3 years ago, I was with two of my black co-workers in a resturant in Atlanta and we were not served because of it. This is not a guess, I asked and was told why I wasn't being served. Also about two years ago not far from Fort Polk in Louisianna, I was with a black co-worker and it seems he could find a hotel room at some hotels, or I could find a hotel room at some hotels, but for some reason NO hotels had TWO rooms available. And we're talking major chains, just in different neighborhoods. Actually the first place I saw any Racism was after I joined the Navy (age 18) and was in Pensacola Florida. I had not actually witnessed hostile racism before that. | ||
| |||
| Bailey |
| ||
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | In the late 50's racism went from blatant in the south and north to just being there. My brother returned from being stationed in Germany in the Army in late 50's, and told of NCO clubs over there being segregated de facto even though the Army did not permit it de jure. He was playing country music in the clubs and they only played to whites. He said there were actual fights when blacks tried to come in to the clubs known as white. I hadn't seen that in the Army in VA in the early 50's. | ||
| |||
| Mr. Ovation |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7211 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I guess it really just depends on where you go. I have seen it at different points all through my Navy career from 1977 till 1991, and as stated earlier as recently as a few years ago. On the bright side, most places where good music is involved, folks don't care if you are purple, which is very cool. I'm not exactly sure how we got off on this thread, (probably me) but I guess like anything else there are bad seeds here and there everywhere. When I see or hear about racism I just find it appauling mostly because it makes no sence to me. | ||
| |||
| Bailey |
| ||
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Miles It isn't off thread, the blues were the wail of the injustice. The best bluesmen, (and women), found themselves stars in Europe and GB, when they couldn't stay in an American hotel, and Elvis and Pat Boone were cleaning up playing their songs. Stones, Cream, Bluesbreakers, Tom Jones etc. all white, making fortunes off a form of music they were copying, while the originators were dying in poverty and degredation, Rock and Roll made dynasties and not one was black in the 70's. Ray Charles, BB King, Chuck Berry (went to jail), all the R&B players, Caddilacs, etc. made money but not the fortunes of the white players made. BUT, life is not fair, it is only time passing, carrying us all along for good or bad. The blues players enjoyed what they had and moved on. That is what I am going to do also. Bailey | ||
| |||
| Mr. Ovation |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7211 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Thanks for reeling me in back on thread there Bailey :) You mentioned artists going to the UK, and you know, that is STILL the case musically. I think PT might be able to shed some light on this, but ANY artist in the US can get distribution in across the pond. I met a couple of artists at a party in DC a few years back, and they weren't even looking at the US market. To hard to get into, and they weren't "online" yet (this was about '97), so they were doing distribution in Europe. I know MTV Europe plays a lot of local groups and the US Hits are spread out over the day. I also don't just mean umh-pah music, I mean some really good Rock'Roll, and POP stuff. I wonder why there isn't more blues being written today? Or maybe it is, and I just don't hear it? Or maybe "the blues" is just a label or a vibe and NOT syle of music. Some songs by groups like RadioHead, Disturbed, and Stone Temple Pilots, if you just read the words, are absolutely Blues songs. And what could be more indicitive of the blues than screaming your heart and emotions out at full volume? | ||
| |||
| BruDeV |
| ||
Joined: January 2003 Posts: 1498 Location: San Bernardino, California | For those of you that would like to get an introduction to the blues, a good place to start would be: Blind Pig Anniversary CDs, Alligator Records Anniversary CDs. A lot of different performers and a lot of different styles of the blues are represented on the Cds. | ||
| |||
| alpep |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | BB King tells a great story about playing the fillmore in san francisco to a mostly white audience, the first time ever for him and that he also got his first standing ovation ever. It cannot be denied that many Black artists were ripped off but they also gained respect and recognition through the artists that played tribute to their music. | ||
| |||
| Bailey |
| ||
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | The blues are dead because all the great bluesmen are dead, what you see today is not the blues, and the same applies to country. The players that created these types of music came from the hard working farmers and field workers, the modern imitators come from kids whose only hardship was being asked to clean their room as their daddy made sure they had every luxury and indulgance so they didn't have to work in that field where the blues and country came from. I shoveled a lot of cowshit while I was listenening to the likes of Hank Snow and Earnest Tubb, and Hank Williams. My crowd only respected how many cows you could milk or how many wagons you could load with hay bales in a day, and I could load a bunch when I was 16 years old just like the blues players could drag that cotton sack. Blues were an escape from terrible hard labor. The modern blues player finds himself escaping from having to clean his bedroom, his groceries are gauranteed. Bailey | ||
| |||
| Mr. Ovation |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7211 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Interesting perspective, but I disagree. I think what you are saying applys to a lot of kids today, but not all. There are entirely too many kids that started out without homes at all, let alone someone to buy them stuff. And frankly, someone can start writing the blues at age 50 if they want. Also, for the record, a LARGE number of the early blues players were NOT destitute at all. During the week they were doctors and lawyers and on the weekends dressed down, and travelled a few towns over to not be recognized. Why you ask? Well, they could actually afford a guitar, and the car to get to the other towns. Blues seems to take many many forms. If you ask 3 people to pick a blues artists, you'll get some very different answers. SRV, Hendrix, Clapton, Hooker... all different, and all blues. I'm sticking with my earliers comment... Blues is an attitude, a mood and a state of mind. The music is how you get there. | ||
| |||
| alpep |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | Bailey Your wisdom is infinite. all blues players must be and stay poor. All jazz players must boot heroin. All rock players must smoke reefer. All country players must be drunks and cheat on their wives. All folk musicians must ride the rails. All classical musicians are snobs. Where did I leave my works and bong?????? | ||
| |||
| iconocoustica |
| ||
Joined: July 2003 Posts: 181 Location: North Carolina | I guess that means people like me who play a blend of the above styles are awash in multiple vices and destined to an early exit ;) Franklin | ||
| |||
| Paul Templeman |
| ||
Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Bailey, where is your evidence that blues is dead? True, there may be a lot of third-rate blues played by white boys wearing Armani whose introduction to the genre was MTV unplugged, but there is plenty of contemporary material by black & white artists which is true to the legacy of the greats. To name a handful: Carey Bell, Kelly Joe Phelps, Rory Block, Steve James, Bob Brozman, Catfish Keith, Alvin Youngblood Hart, Eric Bibb, Ben Harper. There has never been as much good blues material around if you know where to look. And while Blues may have sprung from oppression it's no longer a prerequisite that you are African-American, poor and/or crippled in order to play blues. You can wear a cotton shirt even if you didn't pick cotton. As for Blues players being destitute, Miles is dead on, Robert Johnson for example played relatively expensive instruments (Gibson, not Harmony, Regal or Stella) he wore tailored suits & owned a car. That's hardly destitute. The guys who were making records did pretty well. While I aggree that a lot of current mainsteam country music sucks, there are a number of great acts who can't get arrested in Nashville because, bizarrely, they're "too country" You want real country music that Hank & Buck would be proud of? Try Dale Watson or Wayne Hancock. To quote Webb Wilder: "Real music is out there and real people are making it" | ||
| |||
| Beal |
| ||
Joined: January 2002 Posts: 14127 Location: 6 String Ranch | Al. your steriotype is disturbing. It's only the GOOD jazz musicians that are heroine addicts. | ||
| |||
| an4340 |
| ||
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389 Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I love the diversity of opinion on this board. I'm reminded of the recent PBS special on the Blues. Let me say, that despite what the directors did, the music shone thru. On an artistic level some of the episondes were too artistic, like the end of the Vim Vimmers (I know i misspelled it) episode it ended with the bluesman singing in outerspace. What was that man! Others were too referential like Clint Eastwood's (though I think Clint is an intellectual and respect him very much as an artist) episode. Others were too historico-politically-victimhood correct for my taste. I know I'll get blasted for that one. However, the best episode was the one with the English rockers who heard the blues and loved it. My feeling is that the blues is as authentic as your passion and how you express your thoughts about the problems in your life. On the tape I made of the english rockers, I was able to fit Kaki King's performance from Late Nite. That's a keeper for my library. I'd sure love to see King perform with someone of equal ability and watch them trade licks. I'm gonna look out for that concert. | ||
| |||
| alpep |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | Originally posted by cwk2: Al. your steriotype is disturbing. It's only the GOOD jazz musicians that are heroine addicts. CWK II I stand corrected. | ||
| |||
| Bailey |
| ||
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | an4340 That is a very good and concise review of the series, it had it's flaws but it was a good, entertaining 14 hours. Al and Paul My remarks were in regard to where the blues came from, and not where they have went. Many successful musicians dress well and drive good cars, that is the incentive to play well and succeed. To make a record in the 20's and 30's was the equivalent of playing on TV today. I don't think of musicians as stereotypes, but would you say that Jimmy Rogers is the bluesman from the 1930's to be the example for all to emulate, he dressed well and drove good cars, and he certainly played the blues format. He sold many records so I guess he was the real blues man and not all those who were limited to "race" records and didn't do as well. Did Roger's success improve the blues, or even really expose people to the blues as he carefully avoided any hint of syncopation in his music. My comments were about the status of blues in the prewar years prior to their adoption by rock and roll. They were considered to be playing a working man's music and only fit to be heard in the dives and dance halls as was early country. Music was relegated to parts of society and your social status was determined by what you listened to, black people had proper society as did whites and the blues were not part of it as hillbilly was not to be heard in proper white households, but the underclass packed the Ryman when that trash music became available on anybody's radio, and the dives in Memphis and Chicago were packed every night with the "lower class". Bailey | ||
| |||
| alpep |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | Bailey In the spirit of your blanket statmenets I will continue. Blues died with Robert Johnson. Country died with Mother Mabelle carter Jazz died with Charlie Parker. Psychedelic music died with Jimi Hendrix. Rockabilly died with Eddie Cochran. Rock and roll died with Valens, the big bopper and buddy holly. Folk died with Wooody Guthrie Classical died with Mozart. Slide died with elmo james. Glam Rock died with Marc Bolan and again with Mick ronson. To says blues does not exist because the people that made it do not is a serious mistake. The who said it the best "the music must change". Must we like it no, but it is a fact. To refer back to your comments on blues, I can listen to a player and know if he/she/it has "it". It is all in the way the person plays not in their background. Did the background have something to do with it sure. My parents listened to polkas and I can't play one. I can play the blues though....mnaybe that is how i suffered????????? | ||
| |||
| an4340 |
| ||
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389 Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I have to say: Polka Lives! Jimmy Stir uber alles! I remember in high school and college summers, going up to Bear Mountain for the outdoor square dances under the stars, and during the interludes they'd play a polka. We thought it was the funniest thing (This was back in the late 70's early 80's. Disco, though fun, didn't speak to me). But in hindsight it really was the funnest thing. Wednesday nights we'd go see the Bear Brother's band do covers of the Band, the Dead, Joni Mitchell, NRPS, ... Is it a contradiction to like the polka and the blues? Maybe it explains how I turned out this way. | ||
| |||
| Paul Templeman |
| ||
Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | A lot of Texas border music is heavily Polka influenced. I did a bunch of gigs with Flaco Jiminez & Oscar Telez years ago & they always opened their set with a Polka version of "roll out the barrell" which kinda freaked-out some of the UK audiences. Flaco was always far too tequila'd-up to care. | ||
| |||
| alpep |
| ||
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | That would be Jimmy Sturr. my mom has t shirts tapes etc. mom and my deceased father saw them countless times. My mom has not missed a "polka motion by the ocean" in ocean city maryland for 20+ years/ this was the first time she missed due to health issues. Paul zydeco is what I think you are thinking about. | ||
| |||
| Paul Templeman |
| ||
Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Absolutely not. Zydeco, coming from Louisiana, has a French influence, not Polish. There's tons of European settlers in Texas border towns and the Cojunto & Norteno bands absorbed & assimilated dozens of European dance styles. The "Tex-Mex Polka" is a classic of the region and Flaco is one of the masters. | ||
| |||
| cliff |
| ||
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | My mom (of Russian/Polish descent) was also a huge polka fan. Growing up (before I was tall enough - and brazen enough - to reach the radio knob) the music was either Polka or Country (probably why to this day I have great disdain for both genres). My ex-wife was Polish and her aunt was personal friends of Jimmy Sturr's, so needless to say a "fixture" at weddings and such. The name of the musical style Paul's referring to escapes me, but it's not Zydeco. Zydeco draws from more French/Arcadian influence and uses an altogether different "squeezie-thing". | ||
| |||
| Paul Templeman |
| ||
Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Cliff you can hear the Polka & other European influences in varying degrees in Cojunto, Tejano & Norteno music. The Germanic "oompah" thing is very apparent in Tex-Mex music. The type of squeezebox varies with region & style. The Zydeco players like Queen Ida & Clifton Chenier generally prefer piano accordions, Cajun musicians use Diatonic accordions (strictly speaking they're melodeons) usually in C. Texas guys like Ponty Bone use piano accordions while the Mexican guys like Flaco Jiminez & Steve Jordan tend to go for 3-row button boxes | ||
| |||
| BruDeV |
| ||
Joined: January 2003 Posts: 1498 Location: San Bernardino, California | http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=F0BLUES | ||
| |||
| Bailey |
| ||
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Brudev Good site, added to my favorites Cliff Now I'm really in trouble, I grew up on a farm in Ohio surrounded by Polish, Ukranians, and other european immigrants. Every dance required polkas and waltzes and square dances, so my brother got a 120 bass accordian, learned to play it and call square dances, and that's what we played at the local dances we played for. She's too Fat, Cleveland, Beer Barrel, Just Because, Tick Tock, etc. Frankie Yankovic was the most popular radio star in that area. When we both joined the Army a few years apart, we abandoned the accordian as my brother took up steel guitar and eventually the fiddle, and I got married and had to make an honest living. I was going too mention Ranchera as a similar evolving music as the blues. I have a neighbor who speaks only spanish and is a good mason/bricklayer, he works in his yard on weekends with his pickup radio on full blast with Mexican Ranchero music, and frequently throws large barbacoas for his friends and relatives and has a live band sometimes, I love the music so I don't complain. The music he listens to and Conjunto is the basis for much of the Latin Rock, just as blues provided a framework for 60's rock. Flaco Jiminez is the master of the style, and driver of the transition from country dances to stadium concerts. So I concede that Al is playing as relevent a form of blues as anybody, I had a book that I loved back in the late 60's called, I believe "Black and Blues", that chronicled the interaction and cross influences of country and blues artists in the prewar years. Many of the artists in the book played at the San Diego folk festivals that were put on by Mike Seeger in the 70's. and I sat with one of the well known women country artists for 45 minutes at the festival showing her the book and having her discuss many of the artists mentioned that she had met, she liked it so much I gave it to her and I haven't found a copy of it since. The theme of the book was that there was much interaction between blues and country players and each influenced the other but the blues more so influenced country. Sam Phillips recorded blues like Ike Turner in one session and Johnny Cash in another. All of that interaction and cross contamination has given us a lot of styles to choose from, now that the stigma of "The Devil's Music" applied to blues in the 40's and rock and roll in the 60's has proven to be a false alarm. I believe more musicians were seduced into sin than fair maidens. Of course country, which I play, was never accused of seducing anyone which I can prove as I never got any as all the good ones were taken by the time we got our stuff packed up and then my back seat was full of guitars and amps leaving no room for the despoiling of virgins. Bailey (That's probably why I've been married for 46 years) | ||
| |||
| Jump to page : 1 2 3 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] |
| Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
| This message board and website is not sponsored or affiliated with Ovation® Guitars in any way. | |
| (Delete all cookies set by this site) | |