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Location: SoCal | I was in a Guitar Center last night, wondering around (by the way, the only two good Ovations were up high on the wall where they couldn't easily be reached) and was looking at older instruments. The word "vintage" was used on a couple of tags. One I understood as it was an early 60's Gretch (sp?) 6120, which Chet Atkins played (called at the time a Country Gentleman). That's old enough to be vintage in my book.
But the other was a late 70's Fender Strat. It was also called vintage. On ebay, "vintage" is thrown around a lot. No matter what it is, if it's older than 15 years then it's vintage.
My question to everybody is, how old does a guitar have to be to be considered vintage. I've also thought it would have to be 1960's or earlier. Has time gone by so fast that vintage is not that old? Also, for several big manufacturers, guitars built in the 1970's were not all that good. It was a time of tranistion. Have the years made everybody feel more kindly towards them? Or does age automatically bestow goodness on them?
I've got a 1968 Deluxe Balladeer, a 1968 THead, and a 1969 GC 12 string. To my mind, those are just starting to move into the vintage realm. My 1914 Martin 0018 is there.
Opinions? |
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Location: Scotland | Moody, that's a big can of worms you just opened. There's so many mediocre mid-70's G's & F's around that just wouldn't sell without idiots buying into the whole "Vintage" thing. The term seems to be applied to anything over 15 years old, so it's become just more meaningless marketing bullshit. A good guitar from any era is worth having. A piece of junk from the 70's is still a piece of junk, despite the 4-figure price and the "vintage" label. I was at a guitar show on Sunday & there was a "vintage" '73 Strat priced at £2K, ludicrous. I can't believe the prices being asked for '60's Gretches. They are so badly made it's a joke, but because they're "vintage" they are supposedly worth it.
The biggest money I ever made was on a bunch of mid-50's Jet series Gretches. They were intersting guitars, but in terms of build quality they were poor. I had 3 that stood me less than a grand, bought when they were unfashionable, I sold them for over £7K when they were "vintage" |
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Location: Perth Amboy, NJ | I think to a large degree it depends upon who owned the company that made the instrument. Pre-CBS Fender's are probably considered vintage, while post-CBS would not. I think Gibson was sold to, was it Norlin? (I'm not sure of the history), but the instruments made before the sale to the corporate shirts would in my mind be considered vintage. PRS is a different example. Older PRS's I'd consider vintage, even though the actual age is not an issue. What is the issue is the advent of CNC (computerized duplication) machines which cookie-cutter out PRS guitars of good quality, but aren't the equivalent of the by-hand techniques used by PRS pre-CNC. Hence they deserve a premimium. I guess my point is, age alone doesn't make an instrument 'vintage', but the love and care and 'vibe' put into it when it was made does. |
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Location: Scotland | The term vintage (which is derived from the aging of wine) relates specifically to age, the quality of the instruments or company ownership does not appear to be an issue to dealers, evident by the amount of 70's Fender & Gibson clunkers around which dealers are calling "vintage".
I'm amazed at the PRS thing. The company is less than 20 years old. Regardless of how good the guitars are, and they are very good, there isn't a PRS that could justifyably be labelled vintage, apart from the maybe the guitars he hand-made personally before he got into mass-production. If anything the current PRS guitars are much better than the mid-late 80's examples. I had a first year of production PRS Custom for which I paid just over a grand US$ in '86. I sold it for $4K a couple of years ago. Madness.
Early production Ovations (shiny bowls, inlaid rosettes, Brazillian rosewood bridges) the Storm Series & maybe even the early Breads & Deacons are legitimately vintage instruments. But because the whole vintage/collectors market is fad-oriented, controlled by dealers & fuelled by myths, they do not command the prices they should. |
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Location: UK | Tricky one this - especially as we will all one day become "vintage" ourselves.
I always thought the accepted yardstick was pre-CMI for Gibsons and pre-CBS for Fenders. In other words vintage describes the period when the designs and manufacture was still in the hands of (some) of the original founders and craftsmen. Don't know how that would apply to Martin, by the way.
I mainly know about Gibsons (never been much of Fender fancier, meself) so I'd class anything with a script logo as vintage and anything after and before 1969-ish as "collectable". Between about 1969 and the new Montana factory I'd class the output as somewhere between the sublime and the ridiculous. Post-Montana, I think the output has been very good, on the whole.
With respect to Ovation, as only a recent convert I have no idea where the vintage/collectable divide might arise but I do think the uniqueness of the the Adamas/Elite design and the originality of the colours on some of the instruments will mark them out as highly prized pieces in years to come.
BL |
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Location: NJ | I make a good living selling guitars that are percieved as vintage. as long as the customer is happy they can call it anything they want. |
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Location: NJ | What's lost is that the actual connotation of "vintage" comes from just that. - A Fine Wine.
Varietal grapes. Region. Soil conditions. Climate. Harvesting/fermentation processes. Aging.
AND (more importantly) the COMBINATION of all these aspects as they related to THAT particular time, as opposed to A particular time.
Just because one particular vintner had an extraordinary Margaux in '82 doesn't mean that EVERY vintner (or even every vintner in that region) had such. It's the COMBINATION of conditions at THAT particular time.
You can have two bottles of the same year and region side by side and one could be nectar and the other one vinegar.
It's ludicrous the way they banter that term about in music stores. I guess maybe to the uneducated if it's "old" it must be "good", ergo it must be "worth it".
How often do you go to a classic car show and see a "vintage" Chevy Monza?? |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | The Antique market is in the same boat. Lots of what antique shops have on their tables could be classified as "unnecessary plastic objects" (to quote Nancy Griffith) but people are willing to pay big bucks for dirty plastic measuring spoons and such. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | A couple of folks above added the word "collectable" also which really mucks up the works. Then of course now there is "Vintage'd" guitars being built.
It is all rather silly. Folks will pay huge dollars for a 70's tele, and yet an Ovation Viper is a few hundred bucks.
However, I think on a small scale, this is starting to change. I think the younger buyers, that really care about where their money is going, are starting to look toward quality a bit more, and not so much "what grampa played." It's not the rule yet, but I have seen hints of this. |
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Location: NJ | there are too many factors at play to consider only one.
I am in the biz and I don't understand it. |
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Location: NJ | Al the only thing that you need to understand is the phrase:
"Press down hard, . . . the third copy's yours"
Take the money, and if they're "happy", all the better. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Someone mentioned the antiquew market which in itself is a wierd place. The word "antique" although supposed to mean "over 100 years old" is thrown around as much as vintage.
What is odd about antiques is that the line of "collectible" vs "just old" seems to be closer. By this I mean, it's not just that something is old and of quality from a particular company, but in some cases, certain items just became collectible. And number produced, quality and all of the normal factors don't necessarily apply. It could be collectable because people like a particular color eventhough the same number of all colors were made and sold.
I have a rule with the estate stuff I deal with... If I think it's pretty, and intriquite and obviously a lot of work went into it... it's probably worthless. If I'm half-thinking of tossing something in the trash because it's old, or just plain ugly, then it's probably worth at least $1000 bucks.
I was in a book store last week and got real bummed. I had tossed my matchbox cars a few years back. Some of them are worth nearly $2000 dollars now, and they aren't even the ones we as kids thought were the "good" ones. |
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Location: NJ | The other day I read an article about some of the oddball stuff that people consider "collectible".
fer'instance:
There're people out there who collect McDonald's Happy Meal Toys!
Now, not only do they collect the toys, but they collect the Happy Meal boxes that the toys come in!
Now, . . . not ONLY do they collect the boxes, but they expressly go to the McDonald on the very FIRST DAY that a new Happy Meal is available, order it WITHOUT the food (or get it seperately) and request that they get the box in a pristinely flat, unfolded condition!
oy!
I know what you mean Miles, about the Matchbox cars. We had a guy here at work who made SCADS of money buying/selling antique toys. He used to show me some of the articles/listings and it's absolutely phenomenal!
When I was a little kid, I had a "Mr. Machine" which was a simplistic, stylized "mechanical man" that you wound up and he walked, making various sounds/noises. The thing that was cool about it was that the body was clear plastic and you could actually see how all the multicolored plastic gears meshed and interacted inside of it while it was working . . PLUS!!! . . you could take him APART and put 'im back TOGETHER!!!
I wanted to find one so that I could take it apart, measure it up, re-draw in 3D in AutoCAD, and then make a 3D animated rendering.
(Why? . . . well, . . . just becuz, okay?!!!)
A couple weeks later he found one for me (with the box!).
$4K.
Some things are just better left as memories :rolleyes: |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Paul T, I'd add the slotheads to that list of gitters you had. Most of us might add some connotation of quality to vintage instruments although this isn't always right. The example, a 70's tele I wouldn't consider vintage, a 64 would be. Actually some of the late 60's in the custom colors probably would be now but 10-15 years ago they weren't.
Probably best said that it's a word meant to imply old and worth alot. It usually falls slightly short on the first and usually quite a bit short on the second. |
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Location: NJ | CWK2
The definitive answer is this:
if you are selling me an instrument it is old and used.
If you are buying an instrument it is vintage. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | If you're selling a POS instrument it's "Very Vintage" |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by cwk2:
If you're selling a POS instrument it's "Very Vintage"
CWK2
not to question your expertise, but what you described would be noted as "collectible". |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | If it's reallllly a POS it's vintage and collectable and RARE. And asll those other words that get used. |
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Location: Tennessee | Beat the rush in 2033 ... buy your MOB now. |
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Location: Scotland | I had a '67 Tornado on my stand at a local guitar show on Sunday. I used all the buzzwords on the ticket, including "vintage" "rare" & "collectible" and it didn't get a sniff, except from one idiot who insisted it was obviously fake because Ovation only ever made acoustic guitars. He also claimed the original Tornado brochure I showed him was a forgery too. Don't you just love "experts" |
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Location: Central Oregon | This "antique, vintage, old crap" thing really is nuts. I still can't believe that guy in Texas is paying me $431.35 for an old platter with runny blue crap around the edge & a blue turkey on it. Crazy. All I was trying to come up with was a little more money toward my "six string O fund" & I got enough to pay for my 1612 with $30.35 left over. Including shipping & insurance. Crazy, just crazy. Oh well, I'm gunna have a LOT more fun with my new-to-me Ovation than I EVER had wondering when that old plate was gunna get busted & thrown in the shit can.
Btw, I'm expecting to get my (dare I say *vintage*) Kalamazoo back this week, along with the fiddle I can't play.
/\/\/ |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Great subject, and I love the intellectual musings that it has evoked. One very important thing that has not been mentioned is the "vintageness" of some strange guitar that was seen being played several years ago by the guitar god of that time (god probably now gone in one way or another). Kurt Kobain ring a bell, what was his "vintage" axe?
The "vintage" of fame, unrelated to quality of wine in the bottle.
Bailey |
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Location: NJ | Kurt played Fender mustangs, broncos and the univox copy of a mosrite known as the hi-flyer.
The Univox went from being a 100 guitar to a 300 dollar guitar over night. The fenders went way up there from $250 to 800. The Fenders have leveled off some.
An interesting note is that one of the mustangs played by kurt was made by Ferrington as a copy and you cannot tell it is not a Fender instrument. That is alledgedly the one that Courtney told him NOT to smash. |
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Vintage"
