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Location: Netherlands | Posted two new pics of my SMT. One of them shows some cracks it had in the neck due to too hot a transport. I suppose 4 weeks in a container or hot trains is not a good way to store a guitar. Lesson to be learned: never trust the postal service to transport in hot summer or use a humidifier and have the neck oiled before transport.
It's ok now, everything is fixed, cracks are all repaired, action is the lowest of all my guitars, totally buzzfree and it really sings.
And after all, i didn't pay too much for it, repairs included.
In the gallery I listed the materials I used for the repair of the neck.
Martin |
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Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | Nice repair on a nice guitar Martin :)
If I may, I would like to take this opportunity offer a few suggestions to all the members regarding "Super Glue" repairs for the folks here that work on their own guitars.
One of my other pastimes is building & flying model airplanes, primarily competition control line stunt model airplanes. While working my way into Advanced-Stunt Class, I found need for a lot of repairs. (As I suppose you can imagine.) Usually they were due to the fact that when the airplane is as high as it can be (straight over your head), it's still only two & a half seconds from hitting the ground. Thinking isn't my strong suit, especially if I have to do it fast. Once I do something enough times that I don't have to think about it much I'm better off. If I make a mistake playing my guitar the effects are gone instantly- not so flying a model airplane. You don't have a lot of time to turn when you're flying horizontal square "8's" with five foot bottoms for the judges.....
At any rate I did a lot of gluing :)
In the world of Stunt you are judged on everything, including the appearance of your airplane. Sooo, I always tried to keep my repaired areas as inconspicuous as possible. During my repair adventures I finally found that the best way to keep CyA glue under control for fine work is to put it in a hypodermic syringe. Go to the pharmacy & ask for the tiniest throw away syringes they have. I get 'em 3 for a buck. Suck a little bit into the syringe & put that tiny little needle right where you want the glue. With just a little practice you can really get that stuff right where you want it. I use both hands & brace them on something to operate the plunger & aim. Also, the "super-thin" stuff will wick right into the wood. Not as much in hard wood as in soft balsa, but it will wick a bit into any wood. Clamp gently if possible. Due to these wicking qualities of the glue it is best to avoid kicker whenever possible for the strongest joints. The longer it remains liquid the more time it has to saturate the wood, which makes for a better bond. If you have a little too much glue on a surface you can wick most of it away with the corner of a paper towel. Any that is left can be removed with acetone as long as you're working with bare wood. Don't use acetone around any type of finish! You can also use acetone to clean the hypo. Just suck a little in & out through the needle. If you use CyA regularly keep a small jar with a tight fitting lid full of acetone to put your clogged tips in. The acetone will dissolve the glue away completely, leaving you with a brand new tip overnight. I keep several in my jar, then when a tip plugs up I drop it in the jar & pull out a fresh one. Don't stick a pin in the hole to unplug it either. That will scratch the inside of the tip & make it clog faster.
Btw, you can also use a hypo to dispense regular old Elmer's if you thin it with water first. And also use them for epoxy if you heat the epoxy first with a heat gun or thin it with alcohol. If you try heat use the slowest epoxy you can find, heating 30 minute epoxy turns it into about 3 minute epoxy. Don't dawdle.
Another thing, always use quality glue, whatever kind you use. Not the stuff you get in a blister pack at the 7-11 store, there's no telling how long it's been there. When CyA or epoxy gets old they lose a lot of strength. You can buy the good stuff in half ounce bottles (also ounce & two ounce) for a few bucks at any hobby shop. Look at the CyA before you buy it too, the super thin should be as runny as water when you shake it. If it seems the least bit sluggish it's getting old. Don't buy it. "Super thin" glue that looks like medium is garbage, don't use it! Don't ask me how I learned this.
Keep unopened bottles of CyA in the freezer, they will stay usable much longer. Once you open the bottle the freezer doesn't help much if at all.
You can also buy CyA in Medium (gap filling), & Thick. You can also get it in a gel sometimes.
If you use the stinky stuff make sure you have lots of fresh air, that stuff really reeks when it goes off. I'm VERY allergic to the stinky CyA so I have to buy the goddawful expensive "odorless" type. It's double the money but the stinky stuff literally almost killed me once.
There, now you know way more about model airplanes & glue than you ever wanted to. Sorry, I got on a roll.
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Location: Netherlands | Nils, thnx for comments.
Wish I had had a syringe at hand when I was doing the repair. Now I used accelerator :( If I ever feel the need to redo this repair would it be possible to dissolve the bond with acetone or would the wood be so saturated with CyA that this would be impossible?
BTW: on www.mimf.com I was told hideglue and hothide are always the best and strongest options for guitar repair, but Ovations mostly are repaired best with superglue, because CyA also allows to touch up Ovations' finish (by sanding and buffing).
The 'dam' method using vaseline is pretty effective though.
Martin |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Nils
Great stuff, that is super useful info for all of us who repair things as I do now and then but not often enough to have learned all that good stuff, thanks.
Bailey |
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Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by grrroovedude:
Nils, thnx for comments.
Wish I had had a syringe at hand when I was doing the repair. Now I used accelerator :( If I ever feel the need to redo this repair would it be possible to dissolve the bond with acetone or would the wood be so saturated with CyA that this would be impossible?
Martin
Your repair will probably be fine. If it ever does let go I would just re-glue it using a syringe & possibly hot epoxy. You *might* be able to remove some of the old glue with acetone, but I doubt if you could get it all. If you do try the syringe method be sure to practice a bit on something before you start in on your O.
Here's some more glue info-
Moisture makes CyA go off really fast, that's why it glues your fingers together so quickly. As the humidity goes up the shelf life goes down.
Nitromethane melts CyA just like acetone does. (Model airplane fuel contains nitromethane in varying percentages.) Fingernail polish remover will dessolve CyA in a pinch (har har).
Water based glues like Elmers can be heat activated. Some R/C guys use thinned Elmers glue sprayed or brushed over foam wing cores & the balsa sheeting that covers 'em. Then they let the pieces dry seperately. After the glue is dry they iron the balsa sheeting to the foam. That should work with any type of veneer.
To get a really good glue joint with Elmers type glues- dampen the wood just a tad with a Q Tip dipped in water. Let it soak in for a minute, then use some glue that has been thinned about 30% with water to glue the joint. The water will soften the wood just a little & allow it to smush together & conform itself a little better as it dries & the moisture will help the glue penetrate, especially if you can clamp it somehow. Use plenty & wipe off whatever smushes out with a wet cloth. Done this way the joint between the two broken pieces will be stronger than the wood around it.
When something made of wood breaks always pick up ALL the little pieces. Sometimes one little sliver will make the difference between a fairly invisable fast repair & an ugly void filled with "something that obviously didn't start out there". I have pictures of several airplanes, one biplane in particular "new" "crashed into a hundred pieces" & "fixed again". "Save all the pieces!" is the first thing you hear when a stunter that someone spent a hundred (or more) hours building goes in.
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Location: NJ | Man!! I wish this post would've happened a few days sooner!
I got a cel phone call LATE last Thursday night that I had to go into Manhattan EARLY the next morning to do what I was TOLD was "minor alterations" to some architectural models of three different configurations of the podium/seating/camera positions of the Republican National Convention which will be at the Garden next Summer.
What I ended up doing was basically RECREATING two of the three versions over the course of twelve hours in a cramped conference room with a couple of goodly-sized bottles of CyA called "HotStuff", and I was pretty much "hovering" over these things the whole time. When everything was done and they were being packed up for the trip to Washington, I thought I was gonna pass out in the friggin' elevator ride down!!
Next time, there'll be a MAJOR stipulation:
"Ven..ti..LAY..tion" ! |
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Location: Netherlands | Cliff, are you a modelmaker?
The sniffing of glue and polystyrene sounds familiar to what I do for a living. I'm an architect/urban planner.
Martin |
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Location: NJ | No. . . well, I USED to be (do the old RatFink models count?? ;) ).
I design tradeshows, conventions, expositions, and the like. I started out being a signpainter and doing hand-lettering. Now I sit in front of a screen breathing AutoCAD, 3D StudioVIZ. & PhotoShop.
I suspect I was sent over to do it because I'm still adept with an Xacto knife and won't bleed all over the little model of the president. :D |
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Location: Netherlands | lol |
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Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by cliff:
Man!! I wish this post would've happened a few days sooner!
What I ended up doing was basically RECREATING two of the three versions over the course of twelve hours in a cramped conference room with a couple of goodly-sized bottles of CyA called "HotStuff", and I was pretty much "hovering" over these things the whole time. When everything was done and they were being packed up for the trip to Washington, I thought I was gonna pass out in the friggin' elevator ride down!!
Next time, there'll be a MAJOR stipulation:
"Ven..ti..LAY..tion" !
Next time try the odorless CyA, it's MUCH nicer to work with, although twice the money.
More about CyA-
The stinky stuff will eat styrofoam instantly, the odorless has no effect on foam.
The same kicker works for both if you need to use it.
N (gluesalot) N |
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Posts: 299
Location: Netherlands | Nils, I found another little one and repaired this one with a syringe. Very good method indeed. Could have saved me quite some time.
But I would still recommend to build the vaseline dams as well as using a syringe when repairing the back of the neck, because esp. the waterthin variety still tends to run.
The vaseline can be cleaned using naphta.
Thnx for the help.
Martin |
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Location: Central Oregon | I'm glad it worked for you Martin :)
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Although my post adds nothing substantive to the thread, I simply want to say thank you for providing the opportunity for sharing some useful information, thanks for the fact that the guitar turned out okay, and thanks for the information, itself. |
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Location: Warren, OH | Ventilation is a must when working with CA. I've been using it since the mid 70's on my R/C models (haven't built too many in recent years since marriage and kids). I have run into an individual who ended up with a major allergic sensitivity to CA over his years of use.
I keep my CA in the freezer - only take it out to use it when I need it - will last nearly forever or until it runs out that way.
I haven't needed it to repair a guitar yet, however. Glad to know that your experiences were OK.
Martin, I thought the Adamas tops were darn near indestructible. Besides the epaulet loosening and the cracks in the neck, how did the rest of the guitar fare? |
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Location: Netherlands | The rest of the guitar was fine. No damage whatsoever.
The loose epaulet is as i understand quite common. Probably has to do with the top not being sensitive to humidity changes and the five exotic woods being very sensitive.
The bowl and top are ok, finish is fine, etc. etc. All was near mint, apart from some pickscratches, and i'm sure that had it not been such a hot summer, the neck cracks would have been avoided.
They are not that severe, but i thought it'd be better to seal them than to wait for real damage...
Oh Paul, that's what this board is for right? According to the other thread I assume you can tell me more about Ovations than I can tell you about glueing...
Martin |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Very kind of you.... I know a bit ABOUT Ovations, but am limited in the tech work I can do, myself. I think I could buy a new Adamas 1 for the money I have paid pro techs to work on my Ovations. And I would dearly love to find an alternative to factory neck resets when all of the shims have been removed from a bridge.
Hmm.... idea for a new thread! |
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Posts: 299
Location: Netherlands | I think lots of guitarplayers would love an alternative to neck resets.
My glueing experiments started off because I had some cracks fixed by a pro tech who charged a lot of money for it, so I looked into doing this myself and it turned out not to be so difficult, esp. because the Adamas has an unfinished/oiled neck.
More difficult Adamas repairs I would choose to leave to a pro, i wouldn't want to screw my guitar.
Martin |
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Location: Scotland | The simplest & cheapest alternative to a neck re-set is learn to play slide. ;) |
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Location: Netherlands | LOL :D
Martin |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Since starting the "Phoenix" project, I can attest to the drama involved in neck repairs/resets. Since I'm replacing the top, it was somewhat moot. And, as for learning slide being cheap & simple; you're right, Paul, up to a point. I would agree with cheap, anyway. Ah yes, the downside of Age & Gravity.... and extended learning curves! Newton was right!
Chris "Hands of Stone" Clark |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Since starting the "Phoenix" project, I can attest to the drama involved in neck repairs/resets. Since I'm replacing the top, it was somewhat moot. And, as for learning slide being cheap & simple; you're right, Paul, up to a point. I would agree with cheap, anyway. Ah yes, the downside of Age & Gravity.... and extended learning curves! Newton was right!
Chris "Hands of Stone" Clark |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | ...and repetitive muscle spasms. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Paul T,
You have given me one of my better laughs of the day!
Paul P |
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Location: Scotland | Paul, I wasn't joking. About 16 or 17 years ago I was looking for a regular acoustic guitar to use for slide on gigs. I had a 30's Duolian but it was a little too agressive and nasty for some stuff. I stumbled across a '72 Legend that a store was selling cheap because the action was too high and it had a repaired top crack. I bought it for about £120 cased, raised the action further, put on heavy strings & have used it ever since. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Paul, I accept that you are serious and that the Legend you got worked out well for you. But I confess that it still makes me laugh to think about it. You must understand that I have three guitars in this condition at the moment. Maybe Jerry Douglas needs a backup guitar. |
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