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Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 651
Location: Australia | I tried Taylor's new hi tech pickup system today.
First off let me say that I am a fan of Taylor instruments and after all I'd heard about the system I was ready to be blown away.
I plugged in a 610 model and I must say I was a little disappointed.
I could hear what they were trying to do. The system had a woodiness to it but it seemed harsh in the upper mids when the volume was increased. It seemed to lack definition and I couldn't see it cutting through in a band situation.
I tried hard to like this system but it's not for me.
When I got home I immediately plugged in my Adamas with it's Optima preamp and it sounded much more natural with a punchy tone and greater string balance and definition.
Is piezo dead ?......I think not. |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | I heard the demos at NAMM in January & was not impressed, but the NAMM convention is hardly a great place to evaluate anything critically. Since then I've tried a few Taylors with the new system & it's better than I expected but I'm still not convinced. I tried one through a high-end acoustic amp at a Guitar Centre and while I thought the tone was pretty good (given that I don't like the acoustic tone of Taylors) I felt it had a very low feedback threshold. The low end was getting unruly at very polite volume. I'll be staying with piezo. |
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Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | sounds like voodoo to me |
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January 2003
Posts: 105
Location: San Francisco, CA | Like all 1st generation products, early ES have problems. Some good ones do sound great. You can't really judge a guitar based on the setup at the store. What amp & cable did you use when you tried the 610?
If you are a Taylor fan, you should know the sound characteristics of these 600 series. These maple body guitars tend to be too bright for some people, but they are great for on-stage use, as it resists feedback better than other series.
How do you compare the 610 with your Adamas unplugged?
I recall you traded in your 812c for Adamas & found the latter better. 812c is strictly acoustic. How did you compare them? Plugged in or not? Are you fingerstyle or not?
Regarding ES, I wouldn't buy any 2003 model. I tried a 814 ES with Trace Elliot TA50R at GC. There was no amplified sound!! Some idiot must have damaged it.
If you like Adamas sound, you may not like the Taylor sound. Just like some prefer Mark Levinson (solid state amp) over Jadis (tube amp). |
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Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 266
Location: Tampa, Florida | I was ready to purchase a 310ce Ltd with ES, but was not impressed. I have wanted a Taylor for a long time, but when it came time, I bought an Adamas. I'm happy! |
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Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 13
Location: Maine | Yeah, but because Bob Taylor sez so, it's the best acoustic guitar amplification system known to man. And sheetrock screws belong in the fretboard of a guitar.... and those fingerjoints in the neck, you know, the kind that you only used to see on cheap handrails and mouldings are a technological advancement that really belong on a $2500+ guitar, and... I almost forgot the bolt on neck. When Ovation did it, it was heresy, but "All hail Bob!" Gosh, he invented the guitar, didn't he??? |
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Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | 75Balladeer
Taylor didn't invent the guitar, he invented the promotion of a small, quality guitar maker into a manufacturing operation where all that was left of the original was the name and the fantasy that Bob "touched" those production models to produce a sound just for you as a customer. Unfortunately, Bob probably was too busy investing his profits to actually "touch" or get anywhere near one of those production line clones.
Bailey |
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Posts: 651
Location: Australia | Ralph, I'm well acquainted with Taylors (I own two) and worked for a number of years for the Australian importer (at that time)in the sales and marketing of these guitars.
I tried the 610 through the stores PA in a very quiet enviroment using the phono to XLR lead that came with the guitar.
It was a good sounding guitar acoustically with the characteristic bright maple tone though it did sound a little tight.
Comparing the acoustic tone with my Adamas is difficult.There is a balance and an evenness to the Adamas sound which I really like. It just sounds different not necessarily better.
I've never owned a 812C but my 714 has a Fishman Matrix undersaddle pickup and sounds very good plugged.The 714 (Cedar/Rosewood)is a fine fingerpicking guitar (very James Taylor sounding).
I know I've said it before but that new 1687 Adamas I got really knocked me on my ass and it's the one I reach for and play live, so much that I'm considering ditching at least one of my Taylors. |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | When we recently bought my Adamas ME 12-string, the salesman at the store discussed Taylors and Ovations with me. He was a Taylor person, played fingerstyle and loved the Expression system. I myself prefer Ovations and flatpick. He couldn't understand why I would prefer any Ovation product over a Taylor. Every Taylor I've played (I've not tried any with the Expression system) sounds "generic". I don't know how else to put it.
I tried a $1100 street-value Taylor 12-string once at Guitar Center and compared it to a 6751 Balladeer 12-string and the Taylor lost quite handily. The Adamas ME is significantly better than the Balladeer. It has a bass rumble unlike any acoustic guitar I've ever played, even unplugged. |
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December 2001
Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | Trailer guitars has great marketing. |
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January 2003
Posts: 105
Location: San Francisco, CA | Richard, your Adamas 1687 should kick ass. It is a lot more expensive than your Taylor.
Old Applause Owner, you tried an entry level Taylor. $1100? It's close to 40% off - quite unusual for Taylor. Was it in new condiction with new string & proper setup? You wrote "Every Taylor I've played sounds generic." How many & which Taylor have you tried?
When someone say, "every Ovation I've played sounds bad." Remember to ask him questions.
Al, Taylor has great marketing because they put in a lot of money. If they don't manage it properly, they may get into serious trouble, e.g. go out of business, acquired by other company. |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Ralph,
I have to admit, I don't know Taylor model numbers. I have tried 6-strings that are $2000 street value and I don't care for them any more than the 12-string. There haven't been more expensive models of Taylor 12-string to try.
At my Guitar Center, virtually every guitar has fairly dead strings except for those that have just come in, and even some of those do. So I think it was a fair match for condition. I tune a guitar before I play it, it wouldn't be a fair comparison otherwise.
Obviously, there are good and bad guitars of any brand. It's possible that I have run across some bad Taylors.
When I hear someone say that Ovations sound bad, I chalk it up to them not liking the "sound" that Ovations have. My opinion of Taylors is probably the same thing. Each brand of guitar seems to have a "flavor" from what my ears tell me. |
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Joined:
January 2003
Posts: 105
Location: San Francisco, CA | I agree with your finding. I stopped by GC recently & found none of the guitars (several $3-4k Taylors, Martin 00028EC, HD28V, D45) sound reasonably good. All of them have dead strings or bad setup. If I really want to test them, I will insist to have the strings replaced.
Your Adamas is a first rate guitar. To you, it should be the best in the world 'coz your wife bought you as present. You are one lucky guy!! Enjoy & have fun!! |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15654
Location: SoCal | I've tried out my 3 chords (I'm working on a 4th and hope to have it by Christmas) on many Taylor guitars over the last few years, from inexpensive ones, to $3-5000 ones, 6 strings, 12 strings, and nylon strings. They are good guitars.
However, a lot of their value comes from their marketing. They are not worth what you have to pay (in a retail store) for them. To my mind, when you spend $2-2500 for a guitar, you should be buying something that makes a major statement in it's sound. Ovation Adamas guitars, especially those intended for the overseas market (god those are wonderful and Al has some for sale that are just magnificent)make that sound statement, acoustically, for significantly less than $2k. No Taylor I've ever played has made that statement. Put a Taylor lover in a room, blindfolded (and beat the shit out of him --- no no no, just kidding) and play back to back a $3k Taylor, and one of Al's textured top Adamii (new strings on both), and the Adamas will knock the socks off of the Taylor, easily.
It's what people percieve. This is where Ovation has been on the wrong road for the last 6-7 years. But this year may move them closer to the right road.
Don't knock people for playing Taylors. They are good guitars. Knock people who play Taylors for being stupid, because they are spending major money for the perception of greatness, when instead, they are just getting good.
I've said this many times, but for those of you who are new here, I don't ask others to feel about my guitars the way I do. I hope that they feel about their guitars the way I feel about mine.
Hey, if everybody in the world agreed with me, while the world would be a better place, I'd be bored to death. |
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Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | Just my twopence on the subject: I spent about an hour in my local music store last night noodling around in the acoustic section. I played Gibsons (J45 was the best), Martins (man, their low end guitars are junk), Taylors (what's up with this Baby Taylor thing ... there are two flush mounted phillips screws in the fretboard to secure it to the body!), High-end Taks, etc. The only USA Ovation was a 1982 Collectors which was a bit worse off for wear than a buyer would like, there were a couple of Celebrity Deluxes (shallow and mid), and some Applause classicals (which were really crappy, even if they were cheap).
I will say that the Taylors are very pretty guitars, and the fit and finish is excellent. I can easily see why people buy these things ... most are stunningly beautiful. I don't care much for the bright white binding that appears on almost all of them ... to me, it cheapens the look. Perhaps the white ages gracefully.
The best sounding guitar in the room (to these tone-deaf ears) was a Yamaha that was "handcrafted" and had the fit and finish of a custom shop guitar. I was mightily impressed by the two models they had there. I would easily take either one of these guitars at $1200 or so over the other $2000+ boxes there.
All that said, none of the guitars played or sounded as good as my Ovations. |
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May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | I knock the Taylors because he had a shop in Old Town San Diego where he hand crafted quality guitars, I even had a mandolin repaired there and they did fine. There were articles in the 70's about Taylor's ability to select wood for his guitars by tapping on it to find the best tone, and buying or owning one was reserved for the sainted few, not neccessarily those that had money, but those who had talent and wanted the best, not somebody like me, obviously. But he did not have a factory.
Bailey |
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Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 6
| I guess the perception of how the Taylor ES SHOULD sound greatly depends on your expectation. If you expect it to sound "magical", you will be very disappointed.
The goal of the Taylor ES is to try to duplicate the natural acoustic sound of a guitar with as little "coloring" as possible. How close it can simulate a quality condensor mic is another story, and it can be a controversial one. In general, Taylor acoustically tends to sound bright, of course, it depends on the particular model & the tonewood too. If you're used to your Ovation/Adamas sound, you're probably used to a more "round" (not knowing a better word to describe it) sound unplugged, & a typical piezo sound of the Ovation/Adamas when plugged in.
I like the unplugged sound of my Ovation a lot(btw, it's a deep bowl model), it sounds so smooth & warm, any unlike any wood guitars I've ever played. However, I'm not that keen on the plug in sound of Ovation/Adamas. IMO, they sound unnatural. Having said so, I don't mind playing my Ovation on stage at all due to the ease of setting up, the high feed-back resistance & it's ability to cut through the more expensive Taylor :) , or for that matter, any other instruments on stage. Even though it doesn't sound natural wood, it does sound "magical". To sum it up, the plug-in sound of Ovation/Adamas has it's charisma/personality, whether you like it or not.
On the other hand, the Taylor ES does sound a lot closer to what an accoustic guitar supposed to sound. Does it blow me away? Yes and no. No because it doesn't sound "inspiring"/"magical". Yes because, IMHO, it does sound like a wood guitar. If you like the acoustic sound of a Taylor, you'll love the ES. But if you don't, you should not consider a Taylor at all, not to mention the ES.
Just my 2 cents. |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | OK, here's where it all goes to hell in a hand basket. Generally the more inspiring a guitar is to play acoustically, the more grief you'll get as the volume goes up, unless you have the equipment & technical knowledge to deal with it, and as I see it it there are 2 extremes: at one extreme there is a purely acoustic guitar, no pickups, fine woods, lightly built, sounds great. Total waste of time & effort on stage. At the other extreme you have the Gibson Chet Atkins, Godin Acousticaster, Ovation Viper, supershallows and the like. Next to zero acoustic sound, maximum feedback rejection, good to great plugged-in sound (unless you play solo or with a small band when to me they can sound thin & gutless) In between there's every thing else. It depends on your needs, personal taste, size of venue you play, how loud you like your monitors, and how much you want or need to understand the technicalities of sound-engineering.
Personally I consider Taylors as great campfire guitars (as fuel) and I dislike Fishman preamps. The ES system does not sound like a microphone, despite their claims & Rupert Neve's electronics. Just like a piezo it is another flawed and innacurate but still useable analogy of a guitar sound and I'm sure it will work for some people. Personally I have very specific needs from an acoustic pickup system. As a fingerstyle player who uses nails and flesh I need to squeeze every dB of feedback-free headroom out of a guitar to be heard over a loud rhythm section and/or noisy venue and still have a guitar that sounds relatively acoustic. I don't think the ES will do that. The Baggs I-Beam certainly wont. Most undersaddles start to sound quacky when pushed hard. Which brings us back to the Ovation pickup. The Ovation pickup has at least double the gain of everything else out there (and I've tried most of them) before it will feed back, and doesn't "quack" as much as an undersaddle if played hard. If you play the occasional coffee-house gig, or play big venues and can afford James Taylor's sound crew I'm sure the ES or a Baggs I-Beam will serve you well. |
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Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 2246
Location: Yucaipa, California | My tuppence:
I also love the warmth of my Balladeers and my 2001 Redwood... however, when I play them ALL (fingerpick Scruggs style) through my Crate "Acoustic" amp, they all sound "electric", tinny and lose their naturalness... I've adjusted the settings until I'm blue in the face but to no avail.... BUT, when I play through my old 1970' era Rickenbacher studio amp (1-10") the magic happens! They ALL sound just the same as unplugged except LOUDER. I use the factory "preshape" settings quite a bit and they sound wonderful... ;)
Much of the perception has to do with the Guitar, the Guitarist and the amp.
tim |
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Taylor Expression System
