|
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 143
Location: High, in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado | I just purchased a beautiful Pacemaker built in 1975. This guitar has lived it's entire life in higher humidity, like around 80%. Now it will moving to an arid area of around 10% humidity. My question is not if I should humidify my guitar case, as I intend to, but how seasoned do you think it should be after nearly 30 years? Even in higher humid areas, I would think it should be pretty well set, and not as susceptible to shrinkage, say as compared to a "new" guitar. Am I right, or bass ackwards?
Thanks,
Dale |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 171
Location: Indiana | I don't know the answer, but it is an interesting question. I know of a luthier in Illinois who builds classical guitars and only uses tone woods he collected over 25 years ago. Being wood...I am not sure if it ever truely "sets". I ruined an old Hoosier cabinet that I got from my grandparents farm by storing it in the basement for one summer. Good Luck with it.
Mark |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | You are misunderstanding the term "seasoned". Wood used in guitar making needs to loose a percentage of it's moisture content in order to become stable(i.e. "seasoned") This is usually by air-drying which can take years, or more usually kiln-drying. Old growth stock which has been felled, cut, dried, & stored correctly is considered ideal. But any wood, regardless of it's age & condition (or "seasoning") remains hygroscopic, therefore the environment in which it is stored after manufacture is a major factor in an instruments long-term stability. The key is knowing reasonably accurately the conditions in which your guitars live. In other words, if you are concerned about climate, invest in a hygrometer. Search past posts on "humidity" or "humidifiers" for several discussions on the subject. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 143
Location: High, in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado | Thank You Paul for your response, but your answer is not quit what I was looking for... I have done a search on humidifying, but my question, although maybe poorly asked, was more in the vein of what the difference is of, ok, not seasoned wood, but of aged wood... According to Kim Keller with Ovation, it takes several years for a solid wood top to age and mellow... The tone improves... Given the case, I am wondering how that would affect the over all stability of the wood... Possibly to better state it, at least I'll try... Does aged wood on a guitar, have a better ability to sustain it's shape with out cracking? As I said, I do plan to humidify the case, in which I store all of my guitars, because of my arid environment, I'm just curious as to " Does it need EXTRA care, being 30 years old? Or are the newer guitars more vulnerable to cracking? This difference would give me a better idea as to the care I should (could) give it... I have the newer O's (6 years and younger) with great success and no problems thus far... It's the different care I might need to give the older one that I'm looking for.... This is my first older O... It's in mint state, and I would hate to be the one that made a boo boo to hurt this previously well cared for beauty...
Gosh, I hope I explained that a little better... None the less, I do appreciate your answer...
Dale :) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | TheEliteist
I have been playing acoustics for 50 years, and have seen and have some many years old. The answer to your question about aging, in my observations, is that a good piece of wood will be as good after 30 years as when built if it hasn't been abused (I also worked in sawmills and spent some time dealing with lumberyards and carpenters as a Pittsburgh Paint salesman in Ohio). As Paul pointed out, seasoned and treated (i.e. kilned) wood is wood that has reached some ideal moisture content and STABILITY, wood that hasn't been aged or treated will WARP as it stabilizes itself, that is why you cannot build a house out of GREEN lumber. Once it has stabilized it will usually be good for years. A guitar top being thin and under stress is sensitive to changes in humidity either way low or high, but it has more to do with the thinness and stress than ageing, as saturated wood becomes soft and weak and sinks and extremely dry wood shrinks and cracks. If you have an old guitar that hasn't shown any of these problems all you need to do is continue to protect it from moisture and TEMPERATURE extremes and it will go as many years as it has already. The damage of extremes is as likely to happen the day after a guitar is bought new as it is 50 years later.
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 143
Location: High, in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado | Wonderful answers, from both of you... Thank you! Now I see the full circle... I wanted a better understanding and between you two, now I have it... I think! :D
Seriously, I do feel much better with a deeper understanding...
Long live Ovation!
Dale :) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Dale
Sorry if I appeared to confuse rather than enlighten.
Simply put, if it is in good shape, take care of it and it will last as long as it has already lasted. Ovation uses the best quality wood so there is no need to worry about that. The worst instrumant I had to get repaired was a 60+ year old American Washburn mandolin that had hung on somebody's wall fully strung and the neck warped, the top was still perfect.
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 1
Location: Akron, OH | I'm new to the OFC but have owned & played many acoustic guitars over the past 30 years. I have a theory about Ovations and the cracking or checking issue and would be interested to hear what you folks think. It seems to me that, compared to other high end guitars, Ovations are especially prone to this problem. Would you agree, or is it just my perception because I enjoy checking out vintage Ovations more than any other makes? If Ovations are, in fact, more susceptible to cracking, I believe it's due to their unique construction that combines two very different materials (wood and synthetic) versus the traditional all wood body. Whereas the wood top, sides and back of all other instruments can expand and contract with changes in humidity AT THE SAME RATE, the Ovation top has to make the same changes while fixed to a much more stable bowl and is under more stress accordingly. I may be stating the obvious but I'm unaware of any discussion on that topic. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | I think that Ovations are no more prone to structural problems than other guitars, and in many ways are more robust, especially the carbon-composite top Adamas models. As for the 2-different materials theory, in traditional guitars the tops are softwoods such as spruce while the backs and sides are hardwoods such as maple, rosewood or mahogany. These materials are just about as dissimilar to each other as spruce & fibreglass, and if they respond to changes in climate they will not do so "at the same rate". Kim Keller explained to me that it's also a myth that top cracks are caused by the rigidity of the bowl. The bowls in their raw state before they are fitted with a top are actually quite flexible |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15653
Location: SoCal | My guess is that Temp is right on and the reason you see so many cracks in Ovations is that people often treat them as if the top is as invulnerable of the bowl. Teat them like the fine guitars that they are and there won't be any problems.
I've seen surface cracking in the finish on all older guitars, not just Ovations. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 143
Location: High, in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado | Teat? Hahaha! For some perverted reason, that struck me funny...
Anyway,I was trying to phrase what you so eloquently said Moody. That is my opinion exactly!
Bailey, I really did "get it" with both your and Pauls explanations... Well Done and thanks!
Dale |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15653
Location: SoCal | Should I have spelled it "tit"?
Ok, ok. I meant to say "treat". |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | This so called "cracking" problem on Ovation guitars that has surfaced here about once every six months has, I believe, a simple explanation.
When I was in the Army in the 1950s, you would have been certain to conclude that Harmony never made an arch top guitar that didn't have an action measuring 3/4 inch at the 20th fret from all of the day room guitars that the Army had for us to play. Why? Those guitars were exposed to every kind of abuse that can be imagined, and only survived in one piece because they were made of 1/4 inch plywood, the strings were the equivalant of fencing wire, probably Black Diamonds (020-095), the temp variations were freezing to cooking depending on the season, and if a company moved, they were thrown in the back of a duece and a half as is, none had a case, and transported to the next assignment that might be a bivuouc or even a stint at the Artic Group with the poor bozos that screwed up and were sent there.
Anyway, the idea that Ovations are indestructable leads some neandrethals to abuse them in music stores and real life, resulting in the type of damage that you used to see in Shelby Cobra Mustangs that were rented and raced and returned to the idiot rental company in one piece if they weren't wrecked. (Occasionally someone would rent one and remove the engine for their tame Mustang, putting their stock engine back in the Shelby).
Point is, more than likely those cracked Ovations were abused, and judging by the modern opinion of Ovations in music stores, that isn't hard to believe.
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15653
Location: SoCal | Bailey:
I had known about the Shelby Mustangs being rented for the weekend and raced, then returned to the rental company, but I had never heard of somebody pulling the engine from one for their own Mustang and returning the Shelby with the milder engine. Do you know of somebody who did that? Regardless, it makes for a great story. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Paul
I don't personally know of the engine swap, but on a history of Mustangs they mentioned that the swap happened more than once. It seems it was usually discovered when someone complained that the rented Shelby was a deadass at the stop light. The rental company mechanics apparently had no idea what "Shelby" meant on the logo, so a 2 barrel or a six cylinder seemed fine to them. I mean, after all, there is an enjun in thair, c'mon it's a rental, whadded chu acspect, a race car?
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Bailey, never heard about 6-cylinders or 2-barrel 289s being swapped into Hertz Shelbys and being LEFT there....I HAD heard the stories about people renting them for the weekend, swapping the motor into their regular V-8 Mustang to race, and then swapping them back for return to Hertz, though....
For what it's worth, I work for the 100-year-old blue oval company..... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Old
Applause
Owner
There are probably a thousand variations on this story, all with an element of truth, The bottom line seems to be that renting a rocket ship is asking for it, after all every weekend racer wanta be knows that the cost of a rental is a lot less than owning one. I was a rabid sports car fan in CA, and the experience of my life was going to Riverside and watching Dave McDonald and crew race the Shelby Cobras in around 1966. It was nirvana to an ex stock car fan (me), to see sports cars power sliding around corners and sounding like NASCAR thunderers and beating the S--t out of every thing in their class. I am sure when I go to heaven, Gabriel will hand me the keys to a Shelby Cobra with six carbs and a number 98 on the door.
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Bailey, I'll "settle" for a Ford GT Mark II, with a NASCAR-spec single-4-barrel-carb 427, and the black number 2 on the door for my heavenly ride!!! I remember watching the Cobras and GTs on TV when I was a kid, but I'm a little young to have seen them race for real. And rural central Illinois was not exactly the place to have seen any of that, either.
For what it's worth, the new GTs are undergoing final pre-production testing right now, I see at least one every time I go to the Dearborn test track...... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Been following the GT reissue, I hope it works and I think it will. Maybe we'll see them on the track blowing away Corvettes.
Saddest story of the century is that the first GTs were abandoned to the junkyard and could have been bought for their price in scrap weight.
My present acquisition fever is for Chevy's new SSR. It looks a little like the dump truck I drove in 1956 in PA, hauling gravel and lime for my cousin who owned the trucks, I also drove a Ford dump truck that used twice the gas and had brakes that failed on me twice at intersections that , fortunately, in western PA, had nobody coming in the other direction, so I just cruised through, dumped my load, and went back and asked to be assigned to the Chevys.
I want the SSR, it looks like a little 50's Chevy truck with 0 to 60 times in the 6 second area.
WHOOO HAAAA!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Bailey, the GTs that were scrapped were "clapped out" over-stressed, used-up race cars and wouldn't have been safe to drive, other than at normal speeds(and you know somebody would have driven them faster)....they were scrapped for liability reasons, even in the 1960s.
I've seen SSR prototypes running around on public roads here in SE Michigan....a little too strange for my taste. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Old Applause Owner
"... a little to strange for my taste." From the owner and player of the the most innovative guitar of the modern age!
I myself sometimes feel a little too strange for anybody's taste, you have just made the SSR my next thing that I want and can't afford for sure. After your post I went out and bought many many lottery tickets. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Bailey, after I posted that I rethought my "too strange for my taste" statement.....it's just that it is very stylized and custom-looking and my taste in trucks runs to fairly normal. If I thinks of it as a custom hot rod, then I'm more comfortable with it.
I do think you'd better hurry on winning the lottery, though, my opinion is that GM will only make it a couple of years...the pattern for retro cars is that they sell like crazy for a year to two years and then they can't give them away(like the retro T-Bird). That's because they are a style statement and there are only a certain number of buyers in that segment.
I like Ovations because they always looked like a "hot rod guitar". |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 143
Location: High, in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado | "I like Ovations because they always looked like a "hot rod guitar"."
Maybe that is part of the reason I like Ovation's... When I was in High School, I drove a 65 Mustang, then a 70 GTO Judge... Those were the days! What great and classic cars! I'm lucky to be alive! :D I wish I had them back..
Now, instead of classic cars, I drive classic guitars... We are still living in the good old days, maybe just a little more tame... Most certainly as fun!
Dale |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Dang
I like the "retro" T-Bird, gives me flashes of "American Graffiti" and '56 youthful intense desires. I guess I am lost to the world of realism, I'll just crawl into a corner and play one of those MOB's, I did spend a lot of time in La Jolla when I lived in CA a little Endless Summer rubbed off, I also saw a brand new 300 Boss Mustang at a muffler shop in La Jolla being equipped with two straight pipes, it had the first wide tires I had ever seen on a road car. I fell in love but, as usual, it was unrequited.
Bailey |
|
| |
Seasoned wood, more stable?
