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Random quote: "Ovation Guitars really don't get the respect they deserve!" - Alex Pepiak



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FRG

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alpep
Posted 2003-11-24 8:56 AM (#200494)
Subject: FRG


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
from a reliable source this is what I learned is the official deal on Factory Reconditioned Guitars.

A FRG is a cosmetically flawed guitar that has no playability issues only visual. They come with a 5 year limited warranty.

Currently no USA model is designated as second
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SteveL778
Posted 2003-11-24 2:19 PM (#200495 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 53

Location: Canada
Are the visual flaws suposed to be corrected before shipment?
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alpep
Posted 2003-11-24 2:30 PM (#200496 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
no that is why the guitar is sold at a discount
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SteveL778
Posted 2003-11-24 6:37 PM (#200497 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 53

Location: Canada
I'm very suprised a company like Ovation would even allow these guitars to exist. One would think that if a unit did not meet or exceed the quality expectations, the guitar would be destroyed.
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WAOvation
Posted 2003-11-24 7:13 PM (#200498 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
October 2003
Posts: 44

Location: Richland, Washington
It’s pretty common for reputable companies to sell units as “not first class” or “factory seconds”. What happens in the manufacturing business is that the cosmetic flaw is not caught early or occurs later in the manufacturing process such that the company has gotten too much investment into a unit to destroy the unit. A long time ago I worked at Amana Refrigeration and it was quite common for refrigerator units that had a small ding in the back of the unit to be sold as “second” or “not first class”. All workings were in order, just a slight blemish in the cabinet that was normally hardly noticeable. They sold these units to employees and other people straight from the factory at hundreds of dollars less from first class units. A reputable company will label these sorts units/tell the consumer and sell them as such, just as Ovation does. I don’t think any less of Ovation for doing that. It’s often a good deal for both the company and the consumer as long as the consumer knows what he/she is getting. There are less honest companies that make seconds and sell them as first class units... Craig
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TheEliteist
Posted 2003-11-24 7:13 PM (#200499 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 143

Location: High, in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado
Destroy anything but perfection? To destroy seconds would be illogical and fiscally unwise, in my opinion. There are a lot of people that would prefer a second, a ding, a scratch, if it would make it (read any item) cheaper, or more easily budgeted... My self, I would rather pay more and have the best... I get razzed about it often... But I sure understand some of the "bargains" that my friends get and why...
It's my opinion that ALL company’s have seconds, they would have to, as no one is perfect... I get upset not with a "bargain" or "second", but when I pay for the best and don't receive it...

Dale
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Nils
Posted 2003-11-24 9:27 PM (#200500 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380

Location: Central Oregon
Originally posted by TheEliteist:
Destroy anything but perfection? To destroy seconds would be illogical and fiscally unwise, in my opinion. There are a lot of people that would prefer a second, a ding, a scratch, if it would make it (read any item) cheaper, or more easily budgeted... My self, I would rather pay more and have the best... I get razzed about it often... But I sure understand some of the "bargains" that my friends get and why...
It's my opinion that ALL company’s have seconds, they would have to, as no one is perfect... I get upset not with a "bargain" or "second", but when I pay for the best and don't receive it...

Dale


Too bad car companies don't advertise thier "seconds" & sell them as such.

/\/\/
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SteveL778
Posted 2003-11-24 9:51 PM (#200501 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 53

Location: Canada
I definitely agree that factory seconds can prove to be beneficial to some. Individuals who are not financially sound or would prefer to obtain a flawed unit for a cheaper price would indeed benefit greatly. The destruction of these units can also demonstrate the importance of quality to a company. Logically, a company who holds a corporate niche in providing quality not quantity would base their marketing on this strategy. Considering a company will purchase capital in mass proportions, this will allow the loss of one unit to be minimized. One must then measure the monetary value of the destroyed unit vs. the negative side effects distributed towards the corporate identity. Basically, a company like Rolls Royce would never allow a unit that contained small flaws to be delivered. Even though they could sell a flawed unit to a consumer at a discounted rate, it would contradict the structure of their company and the values they abide by. I probably would not purchase a flawed unit (If I actually knew it was flawed) but I can see why so many people would take advantage of one. I can also relate to a company who destroys such imperfections and charges the consumer more per unit. The Eliteist suggested that he would rather pay more for a guitar that is constructed of top quality capital and labor. This shows that he would rather associate himself with quality and demonstrate this through his guitar. There is a product for every market; I believe consumers can take advantage of the Celebrity line if they wish to enter a low cost category of guitars.
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Bradley
Posted 2003-11-24 10:05 PM (#200502 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 613

Location: Zion, Illinois
My Gibson J-200 was a factory 2nd. It a flaw in the wood under the pickguard. Funny thing is they replaced the top a couple of years later, so it didn't matter.

I heard Martin destroys their flawed guitars. Anyone else heard this?

Bradley
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Mark1960
Posted 2003-11-24 11:36 PM (#200503 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 171

Location: Indiana
I work for Carrier and they are the leader in the HVAC industry. We care a great deal about quality and sell most of our scratch and dent stuff at a big discount to our employees. I saved over $2000 on my heating and air conditioning system. The units had very minor cosmetic flaws but still perform their primary function perfectly...to heat and cool. A guitar's primary function is to make music. I think destroying them for minor cosmetic issues is a huge waste of energy and resources. Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I think as long as the seller is up front about it, it's fine and enables someone who cares more about sound than appearances to purchase a far better instrument than he might have otherwise been able to afford.

Mark
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Standingovation
Posted 2003-11-26 7:58 PM (#200504 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG



Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6191

Location: Phoenix AZ
I think the root of the problem / confusion is that these are called "Factory Reconditioned Guitars". And THAT is a lot of bullshit. They are SECONDS, Scratch & Dent, Blems, whatever ... They are not RE-conditioned. That implies that they have been rebuilt to some standard (like a rebuilt water pump, or something like that). They are cosmetic SECONDS. They play/sound fine but have cosmetic flaws. That's why they are sold so cheap. If you want a FIRST quality guitar, you will pay first quality prices. Dave
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alpep
Posted 2003-11-26 8:35 PM (#200505 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
dave
there are times when a tuning machine preamp pickup or something else goes bad and has to be replaced.
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samova
Posted 2003-11-26 8:38 PM (#200506 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 970

Location: Atlanta,Ga.
Mark, i totally agre with you.I have been a Carrier dealer for 18 years now.I have saved many customers and myself a lot of money selling scratch and dent Carrier units a/c& heating units units..I sometimes confuse the brand name when making an HVAC sales call..I call the unit "Ovation".I get this blank stare from the customer...Man do i feel silly...Well, im off to play my Carrier guitar..OOPS!!!
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Standingovation
Posted 2003-11-26 9:18 PM (#200507 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG



Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6191

Location: Phoenix AZ
Al, If those kind of issues (bad tuning machine, pickup, etc.) are found at final checkout and the part is replaced, doesn't the guitar go out the door as new, first quality? That would only make sense to me. In my mind SECONDS (or FRG as they call them) are cosmetic issues, such as the one that started all this discussion in the first place, that can't easily be corrected. Hence the guitar is marked down in price rather than trying to repair it. Dave
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2003-11-26 9:24 PM (#200508 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
I work for one of the American car companies....there are no "seconds". ALL new vehicles must meet a specific level of quality in fit, finish and function before they are allowed to be shipped from the plant.

Of course, the next comment will be about "lemons"....there are variations in all parts; some collections of parts like each other better than others(and some positively HATE each other)....guitars have that quality, too, this is why one tries before buying if you can!!!!

Actually, the closest analog to a "second" is buying a dealer demonstrator or a "program car", which is usually a car leased by company management for a year (the reduced price lease is a perk) and then turned in. These have usually been well-treated and have had regular maintenance.
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alpep
Posted 2003-11-26 9:30 PM (#200509 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
Dave
I think it would depend on where the defect was detected. If the preamp went to a dealer and failed and the guitar was returned perhaps it would next go out as a FRG. Sorry I don't work in manufacturing, but I am sure there are many circumstances concerning the decision of how these guitars are marked.
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SteveL778
Posted 2003-11-26 9:39 PM (#200510 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 53

Location: Canada
I just seen a FRG for sale on ebay, here is the description

"Ovation's factory reconditioned guitars are guitars that have never been sold, but had a slight flaw in the finish. They are repaired and put back in top condition. They carry a Five Year Warranty from Ovation Guitars, USA. This is a beautiful instrument!"

According to this guy the FRG's are supposed to be repaired.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2567385902&category=33029
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2003-11-26 9:42 PM (#200511 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15651

Location: SoCal
Steve, if a FRG can't be repaired, it won't leave the factory.
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Standingovation
Posted 2003-11-26 9:49 PM (#200512 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG



Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6191

Location: Phoenix AZ
OK, let me play totally dumb here (not hard to do). On one hand we think FRG's might really be "seconds" with some cosmetic flaw. On the other hand we think that FRG's are repaired to be "like new" and should look cosmetically perfect. The truth is maybe somewhere in the middle. But any, still playing dumb, if we assume that FRG's are guitars that never left the factory and have been repaired to be undetectable from first quality guitars, why would I as the manufacturer not sell them as first quality guitars. Nobody would ever know, right? But the fact is there has to be some reason why these FRG guitars are discounted so much. What does the buyer sacrifice by buying an FRG. Is it only the warranty? I think not. I really think FRG must have some flaw that is visible. Otherwise they would be sold as first quality. OK, I'm done playing dumb.

Steve, I really sympathise with you, because I think you got screwed over false advertising. I hope the dealer can make this right. Ovations are wonderful guitars and at some point when this mess is cleared up, I'm sure you will jump over the line and be embraced amongst the devotees.

Dave
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Paul Blanchard
Posted 2003-11-26 10:13 PM (#200513 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG



Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817

Location: Minden, Nebraska
I think that an FRG guitar MUST leave the factory in order to merit that description. The primary source is guitars returned by dealers because of a blem or something not being perfect in the electronics, hardware, etc. They are returned to the factory for new stock and the 'factory reconditions' the guitars.

There seem to be some Ovation dealers on eBay who have an inside track to picking these up from Kaman.
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SteveL778
Posted 2003-11-26 10:15 PM (#200514 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 53

Location: Canada
Standingovation, I’m just as confused as you I would like to know if the flaws on my Ovation (FRG) are supposed to be there or are they mistakes that can be corrected with my 5 year warranty. I got screwed because I was led to believe that I was getting a 1st quality Elite for a very good price. That is water under the bridge, I'm sick of talking about it and I'm sure everyone else is also. Dave at Litz gave me another 40 dollars off the guitar and he has tried to make the situation better. I have noticed that the majority of the Litz Ovations on eBay now have FRG in their description. I wonder how many people have frg’s and don’t even know it—anyway that’s none of my business. I emailed Dave today and the funniest thing happened. Someone on this message board contacted him and told him about my postings, I find that to be hilarious. Thank you to whoever brought this to Dave’s attention, I’m SURE it was done for the best interest of the consumer. In all seriousness Dave did apologize and did state that the mix up was an honest mistake. He replied to every email I sent to him and that says a lot about him and Litz music. If I ever purchase another instrument from Litz I will just request blowup pictures of the instrument hehehe. The Ovation website does not address FRG's and 2nds directly; maybe someone will finally locate the answers we would all like to know.
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Bailey
Posted 2003-11-27 1:36 AM (#200515 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005

Location: Las Cruces, NM
Does all this mean that my 30 year old Viper should be scrapped because it has a few scratches and dings, even though it works fine. Is the appearance of an instrument the primary gauge of it's value? I thought sound was the criteria. Do we play them, or do we sit around and look at them? I would think the opportunity to buy a quality instrument for a discount would appeal to any real picker who values sound over looks. I could buy any shiny Korean made copy for looks, but few USA quality guitars for 2 grand or better, an FRG sounds good to me as a player.

Bailey
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SteveL778
Posted 2003-11-27 7:37 AM (#200516 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 53

Location: Canada
I really don't think it would be wise to scrap your 30 year old guitar. I don't think anyone is saying that scratches on a guitar are harmful. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that we are trying to locate detailed warranty specs for a FRG unit. "I would think the opportunity to buy a quality instrument..." Having flaws on a guitar (even cosmetic) takes away from the overall quality and feel of the unit.Should a Celebrity look better than an American made Ovation? These issues are not scratches but are imperfections located on the guitar. You purchase a brand new car and the dealer tells you that you were getting a 5000 discount. During the drive home you notice that the rear seats do not match, or a door is painted a different color, do you leave them as is or locate a way to correct the problem?
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2003-11-27 8:56 AM (#200517 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
I think the key point here is exactly what flaws are allowed by Ovation in an FRG guitar that is offered for sale. Al's response above is that cosmetic flaws are allowed, but not playability/sound. It would help if eBay sellers would post this in their FRG auctions so that there is no misunderstanding.

I was interested in the Elite that was referred to above, but this discussion on FRGs enlightened me enough that I decided to pass. The seller leads you to believe it is exactly like NEW, and that does not HAVE to be the case. Buyer beware.
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Beal
Posted 2003-11-27 9:53 AM (#200518 - in reply to #200494)
Subject: Re: FRG



Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127

Location: 6 String Ranch
When you decide what a second is you draw the line somewhere. With cars it's lower than a guitar. Have you ever looked at the finish the same way you would your custom legend? Also it's a bigger ticket item and the problems get fixed.

To the point raised earlier that FRG is bullshit, that's just not the case. It was a brilliant move to designate the seconds as something other than what they were to give an edge over the competition and make it easier to sell these seconds. Marketing rhetoric at its best. As for the Factory Reconditioned Guitar, well that isn't the case either, it means fucking ruined guitar.
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