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Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops

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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2003-11-29 8:45 AM (#200338)
Subject: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
Hi all,

I'd like to tap into your knowledge and opinions. I recently put a set of .010" Polyweb Elixirs on my CC01 Celebrity. After playing it for a week or so, my perception is that they don't sound as good as the Martin SPs (also .010") that I took off.

My theory: the coated Elixir strings don't provide as much stimulus/vibration as the uncoated SPs, which causes a difference because the laminated spruce top of the CC01 is not as flexible (lively) as a solid top on one of the more expensive Ovations would be. The laminated top needs more stimulus for sound.

Just curious as what you all think....any better ideas?
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xnoel
Posted 2003-11-29 8:56 AM (#200339 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 782

Location: Waurika OK
While I cannot give any hard evidence on the difference in the tops, I believe that the elixir strings just don't produce the same sound.
The fellow I got my legend from gave me a set of 11's, cannot remember the brand, but they were the compressed strings. They sounded good. I kept hearing so much about the elixirs that I just had to try them. I like the lack of noise from sliding fingers, but don't seem to get the quality or volume of sound, maybe if I had gone to 12's, that would have compensated.

Noel
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2003-11-29 9:24 AM (#200340 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15651

Location: SoCal
I've always felt that strings (uncoated) have a specific life while on a guitar. When you first put them on, they are crisp and have strong volume. Then after a day or so of playing, they settle into what I always thought of as the "comfort zone", where they still had zing, but without the hard edge. The way I played, this would last several weeks. Then, I could tell that they had lost their punch and that any "zing" was gone. Finally, they entered that stage where the rust was wearing on my fingers.

Elixirs bypass the first stage, and for me, go straight to the comfort zone. They stay there for several months (or longer). I like that, but if you're looking for the initial punch of new strings, you won't find it with Elixirs. It's a very personal call and there's no right or wrong. Go with what your ear tells you is right.

Now with Paul T., the life cycle of a set of strings is from new to dead and rusty over the course of one evening. It's a gift he has.

As a last note, when I was in college, and couldn't afford the $5-7.00 for new strings on a regular basis, I would take the strings off my guitar, one at a time, and boil them in water, then wipe then down with a rag. I'd then put them back on the guitar. While they wouldn't have to warmth of new strings, it would at least get the crispness back for a few days.
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Paul Templeman
Posted 2003-11-29 9:32 AM (#200341 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750

Location: Scotland
The fact that Elixirs are coated has no bearing on their ability to drive a laminated top. It's string tension which drives the top and as Elixirs are just ordinary strings with a gore-tex coating they'll exert around the same torque as any other brand of the same gauge.

The payoff with the coating is, as Moody said, they sound like strings that have been on & played for a few days. The advantage is they retain that tone for several weeks. Whether you like the tone of coated strings is a matter of taste.
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Beal
Posted 2003-11-29 9:59 AM (#200342 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops



Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127

Location: 6 String Ranch
I agree with Paul Moody's assessment. After playing both I come down on the side of the regular Phosphor bronze, either the 1818, or the D'Ad equlivant. For me they will last several months with regular play. Just make sure your hands are clean before you start. I like that initial crispness and feel that the "comfort zone" has a little more livelyness to it with regular strings. I've had a set of nanowebs on my Collings OM-42 for several weeks and while I love the feel they just lack that little something.

Now the Elixers do have a place. For my Nationals which are bright anyway, they work great and they are especially helpful when using a slide. That annoying slide noise that I'm so good at is much less with the Elixers.

Also they are great for stores. The acoustics won't have to be restrung as often. An alternative approach is to put the guitars on the top hooks 10' off the floor where nobody can reach them. If they're not played you don't have to worry about the strings. It must be very difficult to change strings on Ovations (although I've never thought so) since many dealers take this "top shelf" approach to Ovation product in their stores.
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Legend-LX-Fan
Posted 2003-11-29 12:01 PM (#200343 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 1196

Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
I really like the Elixer nano-web coated strings. To me they have all the brightness of non coated strings, and they sound good for along time. Like I said in the past, these strings have been a blessing to me. My hands would kill the tone of uncoated strings in no time. It's so nice to pick up my guitar and have it sound good time after time. I agree that the poly-web Elixers don't have that initial brightness, but the nano-web do in my opinion.
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Bluebird
Posted 2003-11-29 3:14 PM (#200344 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops



Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1445

Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
One VERY important tip to keeping any type of strings sounding good as long as possible to keep a cloth with some guitar polish sprayed on it in the case to give them a quick wiping down as soon as you are done playing. Makes a big difference.

Wayne
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2003-11-29 3:22 PM (#200345 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
Thanks for all the opinions. I did neglect to mention that the Martin SPs I took off were 2 and a half months old, and I think they still sounded a tiny bit better than the Elixirs.

I did figure that the sound I have now will probably be very durable. I think the concept of coated strings is a good one, and definitely a good idea for professional musicians, it keeps them from having to change strings as often as they might otherwise.

Paul T. is absolutely right about the string tension driving the top. But there are two components to the string motion, a frequency and an amplitude....the frequency will absolutely be the same if the tension is the same...but I suspect the coating affects the amplitude, and that is why it doesn't sound as "bright".

cwk2, I think Ovations need to come with really cheap strings, so the shops HAVE to get them down to change them frequently....then maybe they will leave them low enough so that customers can see them....... :D
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Beal
Posted 2003-11-29 3:57 PM (#200346 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops



Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127

Location: 6 String Ranch
Old Applesause Man
The Ovation salesforce/Kaman Music people got to do alot of things. Unfortunately nobody's there to tell them the right what to do and following up to see that they do it.

(just my opinion, not that I have any experience in the area)
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Paul Templeman
Posted 2003-11-29 7:36 PM (#200347 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750

Location: Scotland
The coating absolutely has a damping effect, but only on the amplitude of the higher harmonics, which is why coated strings sound less bright compared to uncoated. But to go back to your original post, this tonal difference is apparent on any instrument, regardless of whether it has a solid or laminated top.
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jslamperd
Posted 2003-11-29 9:00 PM (#200348 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12

Location: central Indiana
I change strings at least once a month. I really like the original elixirs. They due tend to ring a tiny bit less than bronze strings but to me the advantages are well worth it.
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2003-11-29 11:36 PM (#200349 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
Thanks, Paul T., that makes perfect sense. It would be interesting to attach different brands of strings, same force, so that you could see the output on an oscilloscope after it was plucked, and study the results. Bet that would show exactly what is going on.
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cliff
Posted 2003-12-01 9:46 AM (#200350 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842

Location: NJ
". . . The Ovation salesforce/Kaman Music people got to do alot of things . . ."

A Faint Glimmer of Hope:

Whilst doing the typical "Black Friday" scurrying about in the massive, gridlocked traffic jam that IS North Jersey on the day after Thanksgiving (shoulda' stayed home! :mad: ), I needed to get strings&stuff, so stopped at a local GC (Totowa, NJ).

I was eyeballing a used Ovation black classical hanging on the wall just outside of the "acoustic room" and was standing adjacent to where a group of salespeople were convened and a tall, handsome "rock star"-looking individual was holding court. Amidst the din that IS GuitarCenter on a Sat afternoon (even though this was a Fri), I really couldn't hear anything (and really wasn't even listening) but the phrase ". . I work for Kaman . ." pricked up my ears and caught my attention.

In this particular GC the O's are just inside the door adjacent to where the salesKID's station is.
I walked in and it was like walking into CelebrityCity. No Adamases, no EliteT's, no M.O.B's, I was hard-pressed to find a USA-O in the bunch.

The guy who was holding court outside walked in a minute or so after me and evidently must've noticed the same thing that I did, cause he glared at "GuitarBoy" (who'd just hung up the phone), shrugged his shoulders up, and held his arms out (palms up) in the International Sign for ". . what the FUCK??!! . ."
GuitarBoy started stammering out model numbers and doling out lame excuses (from "JUST came in" to "waiting for it to come from the warehouse") to beat the band. You'd think this kid'd just got caught with his pants around his ankles, a "left-handed magazine" in one hand, and . . . well, you get the picture ;) .

After a quick perusal of the room, I was heading out and stopped and mentioned to the gentleman that I'd overheard the Kaman reference and introduced myself. Turns out that this guy (whos' name was Adam)'s job was to go to the various accounts in his area (NJ GuitarCenter's being one) and ensure that the product is OUT THERE, it's being properly displayed, and that the sales staff are familiar and EDUCATED with said product(s)! Somewhat of a daunting task! :) .

I only wish that I wasn't pressed for time, as I would've happily "chewed his ear off" on various topics discussed here, but I had an appointment to keep, and had to mercifully let him go. I did however give him a quick overview of the OFC (which he wasn't aware of), annual Tours etc., and stressed the fact that there actually ARE close to 2K unknown "interested parties" out there WATCHING ;)

Adam mentioned that there recently was some type of internal "contest" at GC and evidently Ovation will be hosting a FactoryTour of GC'ers.

Perhaps GuitarBoy will come back a "wiser, humbler GuitarBoy".

Adam seemed a very nice, knowledgeable individual and I thanked him for his efforts (though I fail to see a guy with long hair and a beard having much credibility! ;) ).
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alpep
Posted 2003-12-01 10:31 AM (#200351 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
(though I fail to see a guy with long hair and a beard having much credibility! ;) ).[/QB]


ouch.....
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cliff
Posted 2003-12-01 11:09 AM (#200352 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842

Location: NJ
Lest anyone think that I was casting aspersions at "Adam", believe me I'm NOT!!
He was very knowledgeable, authorative, and personable.

If you check some of the pics in my gallery, you'll see that I was poking fun at myself (and Al). :D
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JohnnyMac
Posted 2003-12-01 11:39 AM (#200353 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 99

Location: St. Petersburg, FL USA
held his arms out (palms up) in the International Sign for ". . what the FUCK??!! . ."


cliff, LMAO. Keep up the great work (posts...) Great story.

I have tried several brands on my 1612 Cust. Balladeer. For years I kept going back & forth between Adamas 1818 & Guild L350. I liked the Guild just slightly better because there is an extra "mil" or so on the lower strings. I think I got more low-end that way without having to go with mediums (although I don't think blood would hurt the ebony much :) ). But they became a real pain-in-the-tookas to find for some reason. I tried the Martin SPs and found that they went dead within a month. Add to that the fact that they cost more than the Elixirs, and I was really not pleased with them. Didn't like the sound as well, either.

Now that I play regularly, even if I wash my hands before playing, I can't seem to get more than two weeks out of "regular" strings. The Elixirs (the .12s) give me 2-3 months. For me, that makes them a better value as well. I have used the polywebs for almost a year & am very satisfied with the tone. They are not quite as "rich" as the Guilds, but I can definitely live with it just fine considering all the other factors. I just got my first set of nanowebs on the advice of a friend & will put them on tonight.

BTW, last night I was at a jam session & heard a Takimine parlor guitar (don't know the model) put thru a Yamaha AG Stomp & then onto his California Blonde. Big sound for such a little guitar. Very cool.
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Paul Blanchard
Posted 2003-12-01 12:09 PM (#200354 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops



Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817

Location: Minden, Nebraska
Back to the main point: the coated strings aren't quite as bright and punchy but they really DO last a long time. Last year Ovation seems to shifted from using Adamas strings at the factory on their USA models to D'Addario coated strings. Longevity seems to be the reason.
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cliff
Posted 2003-12-01 12:30 PM (#200355 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842

Location: NJ
Being that D'Add makes Adamas strings, it's not that major of a "coup", but I'd tend to agree with what was mentioned previously about them being strung on new guitars to extend "shelf life" somewhat. Of course this'd be persuant that you actually like the sound/feel of these strings to begin with, which I personally don't.

(bloody "purists"!) :D
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Beal
Posted 2003-12-01 7:06 PM (#200356 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops



Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127

Location: 6 String Ranch
Mostly Al.

Well Cliff that's good news. Now the next question is how big a stick do they let Adam carry and do they let him use it?
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2003-12-01 7:34 PM (#200357 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
The Reminder of Darkness(as opposed to the Faint Glimmer of Hope)....

I was in our GC this evening (no, I don't live there, it only seems like it...), and an older couple came into the acoustic room and started looking at 12-strings. Well, our GC has more Ovation 12s right now than anything else, 4 6751 Balladeers and a shallow-bowl Legend, so I figured they would look at one eventually. The gentleman started out playing a $250 Fender. When the lady went to get another guitar for him, she looks at a 6751, mutters "plastic guitar" and has the salesperson get a $500 Ibanez down out of the rafters for the gentleman to play(a much better player than myself)....she then refers to the Ovation...."it wouldn't survive the trip to Africa"....

At that point, I couldn't take it any more....I broke in as nicely as I could....."I have Ovations....the plastic back will survive a trip better than a wooden one".....the gentleman then stops playing and glares at me "I DON'T LIKE THEM".....OK.....if you like $250 Fenders, it's your taste.....

I assure you, the Balladeer 12-string sounded much better than either the $250 Fender or the $500 Ibanez. Guitar bigotry in action.

Oh, well, at least all the Ovation 12-strings were down where they could be reached and played.
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Beal
Posted 2003-12-01 8:19 PM (#200358 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops



Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127

Location: 6 String Ranch
You should have beat them about the face and head with the guitar, maybe then they'd get the message about which one would survive the wilds of Africka better.
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Bailey
Posted 2003-12-02 1:16 AM (#200359 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005

Location: Las Cruces, NM
Nah,

Let them go with their second rate wooden guitars, they will find that those guitars make great kindling wood for the fire under their kettles that they will surely be boiled in when the natives see their lack of knowledge.

The only thing that could save them would be Tarzan, and he's busy on the WB channel chasing some hollywood pussy that even his ape friends wouldn't be caught dead with. Actually, I'm not sure it is Tarzan as it looks like a wimp that would be a certain victim of the newly discovered surf rage, or maybe the vine swingers club will take him out.

Not a god time to be visiting Afrika with a second rate guitar.
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an4340
Posted 2003-12-03 10:41 AM (#200360 - in reply to #200338)
Subject: Re: Coated Strings with Laminated Spruce Tops


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389

Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands
The guy's throwing off a bad karma. He will be eaten by lions. I love that thumb's down symbol. :)
As for coated strings, I concur with the Pauls' statements, and add, that my wife says that the coated strings are "sqeakier." My preference is to use coated strings which last four times longer than uncoated, even if there's an occassional errant sqeak. Whenever I see them for less than the price of three uncoated strings, I buy a bunch. I saw on music123's website that exp26's are selling for 9.50 a set.
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