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| Random quote: "Got time to breathe, got time for music." --Briscoe Darling. |
 Songwriting Process...
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
Strummin12 |
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Joined: August 2002 Posts: 623 Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | There are many songwriters on board....something that really interests me is how the process of writing happens for other writers. I've been "writing" since I started playing in 4th grade..spent most of my guitar time trying to write songs, more than learning/practicing the damn instrument. Dumb move...25 years later I'm still a mediocre player, and still trying to write "that" elusive song! Somewhere around '95 something clicked for me...not sure what, but I started writing songs that were listenable...songs I actually liked that seemed audience viable, and got a good response. I literally have people with "connections" haunting me constantly to get them recorded and out there. As I've mentioned here before, it just happens for me (and I'm grateful), but nearly every time I sit down with my guitar an original tune starts to pour out, from the first note I play-though at times the feeling "I have in a song in me that has to come out" is particularly strong. But's a process that I don't consciously invoke. I feel like I'm often "given" the first verse and chorus. They come out very quickly and effortlessly...lyrics and all...though it will inevitiably be about something currently in my life or recently been thinking about. I don't pick the song style..it too just happens, and I go with it (the strangest influences come through too). The hard part for me, the "work" comes with lyrically writing the second verse (and 3rd) to match and keep the flow going. I usually have to keep playing the tune over and over, and the rest comes in small pieces. Bridges come easy, don't know why. I whole song may take an entire evening, or sometimes a few days. I can't say that all my song attempts "work", but now I'm up to about 35-40 playable, complete songs that I play out at gigs. I just wish I had the chops to record them polished enough-but that's a whole other thread, and years of therapy. Other songwriting friends go through very different processes...some have a lyrical idea and try to set music to it. Others have a melody and the hard part is writing lyrics. Still others just bang out chords til something clicks. Some just have it "happen" once in a great while, and still others spend months writing a song. We have all level players on this board, and all level songwriters too, I'm sure. Thought maybe sharing the writing process could inspire us all...like looking at someone else's blueprint. Wish mine was more concrete to be helpful. Johnny | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7210 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | It sure hasn't "clicked" for me yet. My hero is Sammy Hagar for songwriting. Not that I like all his songs, it's just that he can respond so easily to "hey, we need a tune for a scene in this movie" and with almost no thought... I heard Willie Nelson used to just sit and write songs after song, and Moby is another. For me, there has to be some sort of motivation other than "I need another song." I write in a few ways. The most common for me is to come up with a thought and at least one line about that thought that seems like it should be in a song. I start there and build, and let the words establish a natural timing, rhythm or flow. It can go in a lot of directions from here, changing words to make a better point, or just flow better. Sometimes the chorus will come in this part of the process, sometimes I find something besides the original thought to write about, or the whole process gives me a better idea and I start over. I will then try to establish chords to go with the words, and just work it until it's a song. I have never really thought about this "process" before, but I just realized that although the start-to-finsh time varies from maybe 15 minutes to 15 years for each song, the basic process and order I do the same. The other thing I do is just sit and record my playing the guitar. I used to anyway. I usually would find a cool drum pattern to play off of, and if some lick started to fall into place, or chord progression started to land, then I would work it into some sort of structure. I usually just do the drums in MIDI as it's easy to create sturctures. These tunes rarely remain like this but I use them when I'm looking for music to add to words. There is one other way in which I have written songs and it's on using a piano sound. This is the most difficult for me as I can sortof play a little, but with MIDI I just need to mash the keys until something sounds good. I have written two piano songs, that I wish I could actually play. I wrote them using a keyboard and computer and added and edited. I did add words to these songs, but the final polish was working on them with a real pianist to make the passages more realistic. It sounded fine when played on a MIDI device, but when I printed the music, there were 11 note chords on occasion or maybe just three note chords that spanned the entire keyboard so they couldn't be played unless you used your nose or some other appendage. When I was writing, I would just listen and go "hmm this chord needs a higher note at the top" and click a higher note that fit. Not very scientific I'm afraid, but I really liked the result. Finally the songs I have written are for the most part nothing like the artists that have inspired me. Maybe little pieces from everyone, but it's unconcious. | ||
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| xnoel |
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Joined: September 2003 Posts: 782 Location: Waurika OK | Glad you started this, maybe I can learn something. As I said in another post, what little I have written has been built around a chord progression I like. I don't have much trouble stringing together words and thoughts and rhymes, but I just don't have any melodies trying to get out of my head! If I was going to write very much, it would have to be with someone who "heard the music". I guess it would help if I knew some of the basics, too! Are there others like me out there? Is there any hope? Noel | ||
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| Strummin12 |
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Joined: August 2002 Posts: 623 Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Miles...you had me laughing about the playing the piano parts that can't be played physically...reminds me of my early drum programming where the rhythms required a drummer with 8 arms! Thankfully, those days are over... Noel...an idea for you to ponder. When learning to "write" melodies to your chord progressions-you can try recording your guitar progression on a boombox as a start point. From there you can either vocally improvise along with the recording without having to concentrate on playing guitar (perhaps not even using words-though you said you already have them-just using la-la or oohs etc. as not to get too hung up on phrasing or the sounds of words at this point-add them later) and/or jam with your guitar along with the tape and formulate a melody-again don't think words yet. Playing along with the major scale (in the song's key) or even pentatonic may open up some melody ideas for you, then later humm along. You may find that your melodies come through your fingers and not your vocal chords...there is no wrong way...you just may be more comfortable with the guitar. Also, melodies don't have to be incredibly complicated to be effective, nor do you have to be an incredible vocalist. The best way is to try different approaches, and give each one a fair chance...trying something once may not reap great things-it may take many attempts. Creativity works different ways for each person. Maybe that's a help. Johnny | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7210 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Noel there are LOTS of people who only write Lyrics. It's actually big buisiness too. Just as much as writing little ditties or complete songs with no words. | ||
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| biglouis |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 69 Location: UK | Strummin12 Great idea for a post. I've been writing songs - on and off for about 30 years. Not yet managed to score much success but I've certainly enjoyed composing them and playing them to friends, family and until I retired from perfoming, the public on occasion. I have a great interest in songwriters and get a real thrill from great lyrics and music. Particular heroes of mine include Steve Earle, Richard Thompson, Stevie Wonder, Billy Joel, Tom Paxton and Ralph McTell. As well as Cole Porter, George and Ira Gershwin, Bob Dylan and Lennon/McCartney. I'm nothing if not eclectic in my appreciation of different types of songwriting. Mostly, where I've been able to read about songwriting many writers do tend to labour over their creations. Although there are always cases of individuals who get a good idea and dash off a classic in a few minutes. I believe McCartney did that with Yesterday, literally writing it after dreaming about the melody in a few minutes after he woke up (so the story goes). One of the most interesting songwriters I saw a few years ago was Neil Sedaka. He spoke of songwriting as a "gift" and for some individuals who seem to be able to consistently create critically aclaimed creations this would seem to be the case. Anyway, I hope others on the board will contribute their opinions. BL | ||
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| xnoel |
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Joined: September 2003 Posts: 782 Location: Waurika OK | Thanks for the ideas and help. Noel | ||
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| Bradley |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 613 Location: Zion, Illinois | I've been meaning to start writing. I tried many many many years ago, but nothing seemed to click. I guess I heard all the stories about "I wrote this in 10 minutes and it went to #1" to realize that most of the time, songwriting takes time. What has recently inspired me was John Lennon's "Strawberry Fields". Thanks to wonder of the Internet I've downloaded many takes of this song. It started out as a song called "It's not too bad" and just kept growing and changing. The final song was actually 2 different takes, recorded in 2 different keys spliced together. And it sounded like he had a lot of fun in the process. Bradley | ||
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| grrroovedude |
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Joined: February 2003 Posts: 299 Location: Netherlands | It depends on what i write for. For my band, it's usually a group process, in which i come up with the chords and parts of the lyrics. I'm no good lyricist however, my guitar parts are much better. When I write for studio projects or just record, it's more of a patchwork approach where I focus mainly on arrangements etc. Usually i find the things i come up with while recording better than what i write with the band. Martin | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | Back in my graduate school daze, I was enrolled in a program called creative arts education, in a nutshell it examined the creative process and how to harness and use it in educational settings. Songs come to me in vaious ways. Sometimes there is a melody and lyrics come later. sometimes lyrics alone and sometimes both come out. Case in point. I was driving along a stretch of semi deserted roadway and there was a woman bundled up with HUGE sunglasses on. The line "she wore sunglasses in the snowstorm" came to me. along with the first verse chorus, melody and leadline. Everything all at once just came gushing out. and to top it all off it was kinda good! Most of the stuff that comes to me I discard anymore because my heart is not in it. I have notebooks filled with lyrics someplace in the basement of my mom's house and everyonce in a while I record an original tune just to satisfy myself and prove that yes I can do this and it does not totally suck. There are many ways to examine the creative process. I find the least acceptable are the "forced" ways. that is "I am going to write a song a hour/day/week/month/yea etc" these usually are not as good as the ones that just come to you. Yes I have written songs for specific bands or purposes etc. They seem to be the ones that are long gone. I wish I had cash for the amount of riffs I forgot or threw away. BTW did you ever get totally through a tune and then play it for someone for them to tell you. Oh yeah that sounds exactly like....... | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10581 Location: NJ | well since I seemd to kill this thread I will continue with some more theories. I was taugh back in undergrad school that there are certain universal themes in literature. God (universe) man nature (animals) war peace love the quest man vs God God vs man I think that is all of them. Well if you think of it you can apply all of these themes to songwriting and lyrics. Every song like every good story can be broken down into on of these major themes. interesting huh? boring? maybe? | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7210 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | And then there is David Foster Yesterday a morning came, a smile upon your face. Caesar's palace, morning glory, silly human race, On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place, If the summer change to winter, yours is no disgrace. Battleships confide in me and tell me where you are, Shining, flying, purple wolfhound, show me where you are, Lost in summer, morning, winter, travel very far, Lost in musing circumstances, that's just where you are. Yesterday a morning came, a smile upon your face. Caesar's palace, morning glory, silly human race, On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place, If the summer change to winter, yours is no, Yours is no disgrace. Yours is no disgrace. Yours is no disgrace. Death defying, mutilated armies scatter the earth, Crawling out of dirty holes, their morals, their morals disappear. Yesterday a morning came, a smile upon your face. Caesar's palace, morning glory, silly human, silly human race, On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place, If the summer change to winter, yours is no, Yours is no disgrace. Yours is no disgrace. Yours is no disgrace. I'm a big Yes fan, but I swear sometimes they wrote lyrics to see if they could go through a whole song without a complete thought. | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | ". . In and around the lake, mountains come out of the sky, they stand there, twenty-four before my love and I'll be there . . " Written by Jon Anderson to his wife during the early Yes Tours (in a van), driving around Lake Geneva in Switzerland with 24 more hours until "home". | ||
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| biglouis |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 69 Location: UK | As you raised the sub-topic of Yes...... Ever heard the Yes version of S&G's "America"? One of the most original re-interpretations of a classic I ever heard and it contains one of the best guitar solos ever recorded, imho. I only mention it because, yes, Yes did have a habit of creating inpenetrable prose (or "bollocks" as we like to say in Britain) but paired up with a great song they could certainly turn in the goods. BL | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | Last Summer at a "ProgRock" festival in Trenton, NJ I got to meet Roger Dean, who did a majority of their album art. I was always a BIG fan of his! Being a graphic designer myself and having had his "art" in my life for such a long time, it was kinda like meeting Picasso. Very interesting character. | ||
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| Tony Calman |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | Great posts... As to writing, I have always felt "state of mind" was so important...pain, love, etc. I had written years ago but always found that after recording them and listening - sounded like songs already out there. Since 1991, I have had no time off...even when I close for national holiday, end up catching up on financial or paperwork. For me, I take a guitar down from the wall for awhile each night to regain my sanity playing others songs. So hard to be creative when brain dead. Yet, last month at breakfast with a top screenwriter and his wife (gets $4mil per)- when he asked me if I had written any songs, had to say no - at least anything that wouldn't get me sued. Now, with guitar and Korg N5, trying to take at least a little time each week...we'll see. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Quote from Al "I was taught back in undergrad school that there are certain universal themes in literature. God (universe) man nature (animals) war peace love the quest man vs God God vs man" This should be the final lyrics to the universal song: God is in Heaven Man is in hell Little puppies are somewhere between War is forever Peace is for never Love is a dream seldom seen The quest is the search for the answer For man in his search for God's dreams God in his infinite wisdom Let's man be whatever he deems. I think I covered it all now all it needs is a universal melody and we can all sing and play it forever. | ||
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