The Ovation Fan Club
The Ovation Fan Club
Forum Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Calendars | Albums | Language
Your are viewing as a Guest. ( logon | register )

Random quote: "Got time to breathe, got time for music." --Briscoe Darling.



Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Squackiness???

View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003Message format
 
Tim in Yucaipa
Posted 2003-12-17 7:34 AM (#199285)
Subject: Squackiness???


Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 2246

Location: Yucaipa, California
I watch/listen to quite a few of the PBS Soundstage, Austin City Limits, CMT Crossroads, etc just to see what's being played and to pick up some tips/tricks... I am puzzled by a VERY COMMON occurance:

WHENEVER any guitarist is playing a "Box" plugged-in it sounds thick/buzzy/distorted... I call it "Squacky"... no "Acoustic" reproduction at all. However, when I hear my Ovations plugged-in thru my Rickenbacher studio amp,(I very seldom see/hear Ovations on TV) all I hear (others verify this) is clean Acoustic sound... my guitar, only louder.

(Al: I recently got a great compliment on how good the 2001 RW sounded at the Church Christmas party... thanks again!). ;)

Is the Squackiness just a poor sound system or is it endemic to plugged-in box guitars... they all sound like that!

Explanations? :confused:

Sure makes me happy that I'm a convert! :D

tim
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2003-12-17 8:46 AM (#199286 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7209

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Welcome to my pet peeve!!!!! Or at least one of them. Sound for TV Broadcast is MUCH different than sound for recording, unfortunately much of what PBS stations rely on is volunteers. Many very capable folks I might add, but if they aren't schooled (or practiced) in music for broadcast the results can be hideous. Much of regular broadcast TV has gotten much better only in the past few years. I was always amazed at how bad music award shows could sound and yet Letterman could have someone like Ozzie (Osbourne not Nelson) rocking on stage and it sounds great.

I will relate my hands on experience and I would guess this is typical from what I have heard. A band I was producing did a PBS show last year and the engineer asked if I'd like to mix it. I said sure but as it's was his system (the cable channels studio actually) I played the gracious guest and let him basically set it all up and run the initial sound check. His idea of mixing was to bring all levels of all mic's up to where the signal is at zero db, add just a little reverb to pull it together and into the compressor and that's it. Well, that's all fine (except for the effects part) of setting up a mixer in the studio for recording maybe, but not for broadcast. I don't have years of experience at this, but I have mixed for TV and Radio. It's not brain surgery. I just set the EQ for EACH channel based on the content and adjusted the levels as if I was mastering a recorded project. This was VERY basic and they received so many compliments on their performance sounding so much better than most bands, and in fact, I think MOST of the bands could easily sound that good.

The key issue with broadcast sound is that the intended medium (for TV) are everything from the MONO 3" speaker found in most small TV's to HDTV. The final mix has to be able to sound good across all of the possibilities. Even the most common stereo TV's today don't have sub-woofers and tweeters and such built in to handle the frequency range of music. Broadcast is a very narrow bandwidth and unfortunatly an Acoustic Guitar plays directly to the bandwith that is most prominent in broadcast, the midrange. So unless the engineer shapes the signal, the midrange gets effectivly boosted, covering up what little highs and lows could have come thru.

Long answer to a short question. If anyone reading this has the opportunity to do a PBS show, a simple trick is to bring along a little boom box that has a line-in. A cheap one that has two 3" speakers is perfect. Ask the engineer to send a signal to it, and listen to that during the sound check. If it sounds good on the cheap boom box, it will be fine elsewhere in most cases.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Tim in Yucaipa
Posted 2003-12-17 9:06 AM (#199287 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 2246

Location: Yucaipa, California
Miles,

Thanks for the info.... although it made my head hurt! ... too much input for this early in the morning (Calif. time)!

I am aware of the limitations of tv sound reproduction and can accept a certain amount of squackiness as a part of life, but I also have heard it on broadcast radio... and some CD's.. same problem?

Either way, Melissa Etheridge's 12-string certainly wasn't squacky on the recent broadcast of CMT Crossroads...neither was Kaki King's guitar on Conan O'Brien's TV show...

I wonder if what we are hearing is inherently not as good as Ovation design?

tim
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Paul Templeman
Posted 2003-12-17 9:34 AM (#199288 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750

Location: Scotland
Miles is dead right, there are aspects of broadcast engineering which can adversly affect sound quality, but it's more fundamental than that. There is a significant proportion of supposed pro sound-engineers who do not have a clue, or for that matter care, about how acoustic instruments are supposed to sound, and that's where the problem starts. It's everywhere at every level. At the NAMM show last January, (not an ideal place admitedly, so you'd think they'd try a little harder) just about every electro-acoustic demo I heard sounded exactly as you describe.

I carry quite a sophisticated acoustic rig, and unless I know & really trust the engineer I ask for a single balanced line & tell him to leave the channel flat & dry. I mix and EQ all my instuments from the stage and I always have a killer sound.

Recently I've seen a few concerts (Jackson Browne, John Hiatt, Paul Brady) where the acoustic guitars in a band setting sounded fantastic. Conversely Steve Earle's reissue Gibson Advanced Jumbos sounded like crap. But then at that show the entire sound was abysmal. The vast majority of electro-acoustic guitars, regardless of make can be made to sound pretty good and needn't have that typical Piezo "quack". Given that you have a good, well set-up guitar, a good pick-up & preamp and a good sound-system, poor acoustic sound is usually down to the engineer.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mr. Ovation
Posted 2003-12-17 9:47 AM (#199289 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7209

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
" but I also have heard it on broadcast radio... and some CD's.. same problem?"

There is no excuse for it. It is the nut behind the wheel so-to-speak, in almost all cases.

I can maybe see a problem with a "live" broadcast. If it's not setup correctly, you really don't want to mess with much while the event is happening, but on pre-recorded shows, there really is no excuse. I would guess, expecially on PBS, once it's recorded, the video editor is the only person to see the tape until broadcast time. That's why recording the audio for broadcast is so important.

Ovations do have an advantage in that they have a more balanced tonal sound. Also, as they are "different" I would guess engineers pay closer attention because the artist has access to those little knobs on the guitar and could really do some damage if the engineer isn't paying attention.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Nils
Posted 2003-12-17 9:54 AM (#199290 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380

Location: Central Oregon
When I spotted this thread I was expecting something about The Fugs. ("Squack Man meets the Lunatic Vagina".) The only other time I ever heard of the "word" squack. Hmmm, maybe the sound made by what you get if you cross a mouse with a duck?

/\/\/
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Paul Templeman
Posted 2003-12-17 10:00 AM (#199291 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750

Location: Scotland
No, I believe that's a Queak.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Tim in Yucaipa
Posted 2003-12-17 10:22 AM (#199292 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 2246

Location: Yucaipa, California
.....Queak.... don't ya just love it!

Thanks for the great explanations....

tim
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Bailey
Posted 2003-12-18 1:51 AM (#199293 - in reply to #199285)
Subject: Re: Squackiness???


Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005

Location: Las Cruces, NM
Also

I think there are some "engineers" that think an acoustic should sound like a telecaster.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

This message board and website is not sponsored or affiliated with Ovation® Guitars in any way.
Registered to: The Ovation Fanclubâ„¢ Copyright (c) 2001
free counters
(Delete all cookies set by this site)