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Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Back in January, I placed a number of posts concerning damage caused to a 1980 1658 slothead a/e Custom Legend 12-str. Had a vertical finish crack from rosette to bridge, from a point halfway down the vertical finish crack, another diagonal finish crack up to the inlaid/binding. Appeared to be shock damage. Ovation will sand down top and refinish for $350 plus the ride. Claim by seller was for $450 placed 1/14, inspected 1/20, was to be settled 1/30, then to be settled by 2/20, check to seller arrived today for $397.10 - no info as to basis for acceptance or settlement amount. Had new box, good packing, OHSC, before and after pictures, etc. Nothing that I found could give me guidance for shipping in the future. In fact, this guitar and a 6759 CL 12-string arrived today at Ovation - sent USPS Priority Mail. The unfortunate part is that I wasn't upset at the damage. As a customer,the claims process (subjective, poor communication) has seriously affected whether I can trust my instruments with UPS. The main reason this was approved was probably the fact that a large furniture shipper (and UPS shipper) packed and shipped the guitar, their shipping department made the claim. Next time? Is it insurance or is it similar to buying a lottery ticket...I know I was lucky this time.
After the factory does a little magic, it will look as it did in 1980. |
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February 2002
Posts: 613
Location: Zion, Illinois | Please don't tell me about UPS horror stories. I bought a hand made Haida Gwaii guitar from the luthier for $1500. He shippped it 3 day select. That was 2/17/2004. I just found out that the earliest delivery date is 2/27/2004. I looked at the status this morning and it said that my guitar was found left at a station in Kentucky. They better NOT charge me for 3 day service.
Bradley |
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December 2003
Posts: 420
Location: On the beach in Southwest Florida | They screw up every once in a while. I guess I have been lucky. Like most claims, it pays to be persistent and prepared with before & after pictures. |
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February 2002
Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | Tony: I am in the midst of my own UPS claim struggle over a damaged guitar. An independent company handles the claims, and a UPS exec told my wife that UPS, itself, receives many horror stories about dealing with this company. One suspects it must be cost effective to maintain that relationship, tho.
Bradley: I think the sender can request a refund if he paid for specified air delivery and you didn't get it. |
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November 2002
Posts: 1300
Location: Madison, Wisconsin | UPS has a large hub in Catch, Illinois. We often joke about things getting caught in Catch on their way to Wisconsin. |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Does anyone know how to pack and ship a musical instrument so the shipper takes responsibility? Paul B. says he was told to wrap three times with bubble wrap and then place in case (any one have a grande bowl case?) Al says he has been told it needs to be a new, approved box. Taylor Guitars is working with UPS so that infers they are having problems. Ovation places the case in a box - no newspaper, foam cushions, peanuts, etc., yet Al received one of my Ovation orders where the box and case were damaged. Several posts saying must be a UPS packer. Some say claim paid or denied in a couple of weeks; some are at eight months and counting.
Anyone find any of this in writing? Did anyone sign a contract or disclaimer of coverage & exclusions when they paid for the insurance?
Are we paying for insurance where there is no coverage (unless political due to being a big shipper)? If actual insurance, could be considered misrepresentation and/or fraud. Due to regulation under the Carmack Amendment, is there anyone other than the small claim courts that give us relief?
Inherent risk or incompetence?
UPS: Terms and Conditions of Service
http://www.ups.com/using/services/details/terms.html
UPS: Claims/Damages/Losses FAQ http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/tracking/help/faq/claims.html#Who+can+contact+UPS+to+report+a+damaged+package%3F
Common Carrier Liability:
http://www.infowest.com/personal/g/garyh/guitars/shippingprobs.html
I'm not going to beat this to death...however, unless I missed something, it would be helpful if either NAMM or an individual company got UPS and other shippers to define their specific requirements, to include limitations and exclusions. Otherwise, we are not receiving coverage for the "premium" paid. If the only reason we are paying the premium is total loss, possible other forms of insurance may already apply such as homeowners or personal articles floater. Sure, a deductible but still some coverage. |
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Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | tony
the problem is this.
Ups ships the instrument.
It is insured by a "private" company.
one hand does not know what the other is doing.
they will never know.
I went to battle with UPS a few times. some wins some losses |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | Well.... tell us what you do AL?
FWIW, Frank Ford (Gryphon) says that if you pack the peghead tightly the rest will hold together, asuuming they dont put an extra 200lbs of stuff on it. |
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December 2001
Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | Originally posted by CharlieB:
Well.... tell us what you do AL?
.
in reference to packing? or claims?
most of the time I just pray. |
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December 2001
Posts: 7211
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | It has been my experience that the inspector is the key. If the package was obviously damaged in transit, and you payed for insurance, than that's all there is to it. Of course, you sometimes have to argue with the initial UPS contact to get the inspector out, and then the inspector needs to have a brain. Having said that, I only had to do this once several years ago. My recent experiences were not with guitars, but with electronic gear which one would really have to be familiar with to understand the damamge.
I know Alpep has dealt with them much more than I, just wanted to throw in my two pence, and also two notes..
1. DO NOT WRAP THE HEADSTOCK SO THAT IT IS TIGHT IN THE CASE, just do it so that it is snug. If they do drop the case, you don't want the flexibility of the case and box to cause the headstock to break off or crack at the point where it connects to the neck.
2. There is currently a class action suit against UPS for their insurance practices. I think anyone who has insured high value items are automatically part of the class. |
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November 2002
Posts: 1196
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Tony, when I got my Custom Balladeer back from Ovation, the packing job was terrible. Seems the factory just put it in a box, no packing material at all. The box did have a section to hold the part of the case where the headstock goes, but that did little to hold the case. That case took a beating on it's trip here, but it survived ok. Does Ovation send out new guitars with this bad of a packing job? |
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Posts: 15654
Location: SoCal | Every guitar I've received from Ovation has been packed this way and every one, case and all, has come thru just fine. |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | Well prayer is good... but as the greenback says and implies, "In God we Trust" (all others pay cash!)
I mean packing AL... any tricks? |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | Reading up a bit... about the headstock...
I'm in a perplexed situation - as one noted luthier says pack it VERY tight, like its hard to close the case, and one noted Ovation purveyor says dont pack it tight. I'm tendign to believe that some good "bubble wrap" (not to be the celophane we wrapped the otherwise quite starkers Bubbles LaRue in, back in '82) ought to do just fine.
The idea in my thinking is like a motorcycle suspension - hardtail is a real PITA (literally), but springs and no shocks is quite nearly as bad. Controlled bumps - ie, spread out over time rather than instantanious impact - seems to be the ticket there, maybe with git'fiddles too. |
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September 2003
Posts: 36
Location: South Eastern Arizona | Here is what www.frets.com has to say about packing your guitar for shipping.
Packup An Old Guitar
LOL |
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December 2001
Posts: 7211
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Oh yeah, I need to clarify.. I only add packing on used guitars AS NEEDED. As pointed out above, when the guitar is NEW, the axe fits the case just as it needs to, with no slop. The case is sortof suspended in its box by the ends. If they puncture the box, the case is there, and that's what a case is for. As Ovation has shipped literally 1000's of guitars, you can be sure if there was a problem it would have been addressed years ago.
If you want a giggle, go to any music store and see how MOST guitars came in. They are in a carboard box that is in another carboard box in a plastic bag.
Taylor must have a deal with a box manufacturer as I picked up a box from a local music store. He actually sells them for $25.00 each to ship guitars. Frankly, based on bulk box prices, I would guess Taylor pays over $15.00 for these boxes. When all is said and done, it seems like overkill considering it's going to a store that will put the guitar, not the box, in a room for everyone to beat on. |
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December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | When I got my Elite LX from aLeX I saw what his secret packing technique was:
inumerable microwave pizza and coca-cola (non diet) cardboard boxes slipped in the sides. :p |
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November 2002
Posts: 1196
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Yes Al knows how to ship a guitar. He puts extra cardboard on the sides. Nice to know someone cares about packing a guitar the right way. |
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Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Actually, it's just Al's scheme to not have to take the garbage out so often. ;) |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | does it matter if its pepperoni or sausage? |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Sausage on the roundhole models, pepperoni with the eppaulet models. |
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November 2002
Posts: 1196
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Speaking of pizza. Last night I was shopping with my girlfriend, and she was trying to decide who makes the best frozen pizza. To tell the truth, I don't really like any frozen pizza. I love pizza, but I can't seem to find one that doesn't alway taste frozen. Any ideas as to who makes the best frozen pizza. I figure this group would know. :D |
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June 2002
Posts: 1614
Location: Converse, Texas | Paul: Try DiGiorno, or however it's spelled. |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Caution - following wil bore you to death...
When we buy from a reputable dealer, probably not a problem as item is usually replaced.
With private sales, including eBay, We know that many guitars are shipped without damage, appears claims for guitars with minor damage are declined - why do we buy insurance...probably for major damage or item never delivered to destination.
The following assumes that you have paid for the item and, as such, are now the owner. As to coverage under many homeowner/renters forms, usually no coverage for shipping. If you have a personal articles floater (PAF) and you are not using the property for business (performing), most PAFs will provide coverage for acquisitions for 30 days...there is usually a deductible.
Should you buy insurance through shipper when you have a PAF? Your choice. If you have a PAF and buy insurance from the shipper, your insurance PAF is secondary. However, if shipper delays or declines, you can file under the PAF, PAF pays off to limit minus deductible and then subrogates against the shipper's insurance. They fight the claim for you as they want their funds back. You get the repair or funds, they fight.
Recent UPS claim for 1658, should have had my PAF pay off, then go after UPS. The PAF is for a couple of other guitars but the 1658 was covered as a new acquisition. |
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July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Thanks, Tony. That WASN'T boring and was quite instructional.
Now, back to pizza....I like Red Baron, myself.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Ovation 1777-4 Legend 6-string |
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UPS damage, sometimes they pay
