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March 2003
Posts: 555
Location: Wooster, Ohio | With the recent posts on the 97 Collector I got mine out and have been playing it New Years morning. As many have observed it is just such a sweet sounding compact guitar. Really unique in the Ovation lineup. Why does it sound so good for its size. Let me throw out some ideas. One is the top has the most wood grain lines per inch of any guitar I own. Good wood; good sound, thats easy. Deep bowl even though parlor size. Slot head can't hurt. Lastly is one idea that has been criticised but may add to the accoustic sound. The orginal electronics, volume switching is on a long flexible printed circuit that is glued to the inside of the bowl. Because it is long and thin it takes up very little acoustic volume. In a smaller guitar like this that may be more important than with a standard size ovation which have the larger electric boxes on board. The newer electronic series put the battery with the electronics so you can pop it all out. Get idea for convenience but what does it do to the acoustic volume? Why can't the electronics be on a long thin flexible board, which would in a sense make it part of the contour of the bowl. All you would have sticking up would be the battery. Controls? You would think with touch panels I have seen on other electrons they could be used here as well. Sorry probably should be playing rather than babbling. Happy New Years. Appreciate all the wisdom on this board over the years.
Steve |
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November 2002
Posts: 3611
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | So, to paraphrase, if you "lose the box", the guitar sounds better? If so, the preamp ideally needs to be inline, on the amp cord, with the pickup direct to the output jack. |
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November 2002
Posts: 3611
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | So, to paraphrase, if you "lose the box", the guitar sounds better? If so, the preamp ideally needs to be inline, on the amp cord, with the pickup direct to the output jack. |
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June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | BINGO! Few people here agree with me, and I'm no expert (some of those who disagree ARE really experts). But it just does not make good common sense to me that you would put all this effort into designing just the perfect shaped bowl and top combination and model the soundwaves in the cavity as the top vibrates until you have achieved perfection ... the THEN just say, OK guys let's hack a hole in the side and shove in this big old box of electronics and away we go. The two ideas proposed in this thread - build the electronics as a flat circuit board stuck onto the inside of the bowl, or just go direct to jack and put the pre-amp externally (or use a 3rd party pre-amp) are great.
The FD14 Folklore Deluxe which I still claim is the BEST unplugged sounding guitar Ovation has ever built does just this - the pickup goes direct to the endpin jack, with a very small circuit card pre- and battery hatch built into the endpin. It's clean and does not intrude on the acoustic sound. I had this setup copied exactly into my Adamas II Slothead for just this reason.
The only downside is that you lose the direct onboard control at your fingertips. You either have to reach for an external box or trust your soundman. Since my agent has been extremely delinquent in booking gigs, this is a non-issue for me. (some members will fail to see the humor in the previous sentence)
Don't get me wrong, Ovation is THE BEST in developing pickups and on-board pre-amps and for plugged in use there is NO OTHER GUITAR that I would ever dream of using. But for acoustic use, which is 98% of my interest, I paid for the WHOLE body cavity to produce my sound and I don't take kindly to giving away realestate for big cans full of electronic gobbledeegoop.
Back to the '97. That is a great guitar. I sometimes regret selling mine, but I just found it a bit too small to get really comfortable with. But it's a superb instrument, especially in the wide neck version. |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | the amount of airspace occupied by a preamp, in the grand scheme of things, is a very minor factor and I would suggest there are far more pertinent reasons why those guitars sound particulary good, such as the bridge location created by the 12-fret neck joint. |
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Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | I think the sound gained by having an acoustic only is negligible at best |
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June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Standingovation:
some of those who disagree ARE really experts.
They have spoken ... but not changed my opinion (he he). Paul is right tho, 12 fret design has a lot to do with it. |
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November 2002
Posts: 3611
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Is there any good reason for the can, besides dust control? The circuit board doesn't really need shielding, does it? We are debating small details, I'm sure, "in the grand scheme of things". I really don't have that good an ear to discriminate the virtues of a "clean" box. Hell, I can't keep the things tuned without an electronic device, anyway. Probably where the advent of onboard tuners came from, eh? |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | 12 frets, the narrow waist are probably the biggest factors.
The preamp isn't the problem, it's the different saddle and hardness of it and footprint. The preamp adds weight. |
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Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | cwk2;
Do you notice an appreciable difference between the stock plastic A/E saddles and the bone versions? Acoustically and plugged in?
By the way, if anyone is interested in these, they are available (orig pup only, no thinline) from customer service for about $100 a pop. I haven't tryed one myself yet.
Wayne |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Wayne, the 97 has the thinline pickup which has a synthetic saddle and as far as I'm aware the bone saddles are available for the wide Ovation pickups only. While the Thinline pickup may not perform as well as the standard wide Ovation pickups in certain respects, basic physics would suggest it has to be a better bet from a purely acoustic standpoint as it's much smaller, lighter & not full of silicone rubber. But then again, in the grand scheme of things, we're talking extremely minor technicalities. The sound of any guitar is the sum of it's parts and focusing on minor details is frankly, a waste of time. I had a fantastic-sounding early 60's Epiphone Texan with a shitty screw-adjustable plastic bridge saddle. I filled and re-routed the saddle-slot & installed a nice bone saddle. The new saddle didn't make a whole lot of difference to the sound of the guitar, and ironicaly, probably took several hundred off the collectors value. |
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March 2003
Posts: 555
Location: Wooster, Ohio | I didn't forget the 12 fret neck which I agree probably is the biggest factor. But I did forget the bridge. Has the same angled bridge as my 93 collectors. I think they are the best acoustically.
Steve |
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August 2002
Posts: 398
Location: So. Cal. | I thought I might be able to share something relevant on the subject of acoustic vs. a/e - I have added an Ovation preamp. assembly with a 9V battery and the 1/4" jack all on the access cover of my 12-fret Adamas slothead. I used a Fishman thinline pickup because it's the only thing that will fit without any modification to the saddle slot. I can tell you the acousitc sound is absolutely unchanged (to my untrained ears). The plug-in sound, however, is out of this world (using a Boss AD-5 and Bose L-1). Woz, interested? |
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December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I would hope some expert (like CWK2) would check me on this, but here's my opnion (yeah I know).
Most of the sound is created by the movement of the top, which moves the most in the middle of the top.
The bowl design and bracing are all done to not interfere with the movement of the top.
The Epulets let out the "back preassure" created from the top much like bass ports on a speaker cabinet.
The resulting sound the eminates from the epulates or even a center hole is just "value added" to the overall sound that is actually eminating from the top itself.
As the battery box is mounted on the side of the guitar, the area that sees the least amount of vibration, or movement of air, it's affect on sound is most minimal if at all.
In conclusion, I would say other design elements play more into the result sound. |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | The braces are there to keep the top from collapsing from the string pull. Now the great trade-off, weak tops vibrate more but collapse easier so you try to strike a balance in the middle somewhere and then put in print that you've found the exact vibrational point locations for maximum sound creation and strength and that everyone should buy your guitars instead of others, blah, blah, spoooooooo.
Miles, you're basically right that they vibrate in the middle but there are node points all over the top at different frequencies. I always felt it was inportant that sound holes in the epaulet guitars were small and still conected between them so that area of the top can still vibrate even though there are holes there.
To answer another question I do notice the difference between a delrin and bone saddle on the original pickup, bone is much better, more ring, better highs, doesn't sound as dead. I have one made from ceramic and it is very comparable to bone. It's well worth the $100 in my humble gas station owner's opinion. |
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Posts: 1614
Location: Converse, Texas | A friend of mine has two of these, each with OHSC. |
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March 2003
Posts: 555
Location: Wooster, Ohio | I don't disagree with what has been said about what factors are most important. But adding a battery and preamp to an Adamas would not really be the same. There is a lot less volume in the smaller collector. Extreme experiment, take a tennis shoe and slide it into your guitar. Did that reduction of air volume make a diffence, probably. Therefore the effect is somewhere between zero and the tennis shoe. I tried this but the shoe got stuck in the stings. So much for science.
Steve |
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June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | I think the conclusion of this thread is that the effect of adding a pickup and pre-amp to an acoustic guitar is real but small and can be minimized by using a solid under saddle pickup and a minimal sized pre-amp. Other factors such as the location of the bridge, break angle of the saddle and nut, etc. etc. etc. make certain guitars such as the '97 Collector, Adamas 12 fret, and FD-14 sound especially nice. Dave |
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97 Collector - why does it sound so good
