|
|
Joined:
May 2017
Posts: 11
| I'm very sorry to read about the problems at Ovation. The truth is that I am a middle aged professional Brit who took up guitar a couple of years ago. I've been playing electric but when I started to want an acoustic I had no question over which brand I wanted. I absolutely didn't want a traditional looking guitar and I loved the look of Ovation and the wiry lively sound of Ovations played by various artists.
I would have loved a USA made Ovation but cost was prohibitive - £3500 was just too much. Over the past coup[le of years I have bought American made guitars - A Fender American Standard Strat I picked up for £899, a Gibson Les Paul Studio Faded for £599 both made in the USA, both excellent guitars.
The simple fact of the matter is that for most people, even people who are serious about the instrument anything over £1000 is considered expensive and is sold in very small quantities. Ovation were aiming at a very small market segment at their USA prices so I bought a Far East manufactured Elite 2778 for around £649. It's a gorgeous guitar and my luthier was very impressed with it when he had it in for set-up. If the Far Eastern guitars were £649 and the USA made ones £1000 ish or a bit more I would have bought USA made, but because of the price difference I didn't.
Just my thoughts, I'm very sad about it but the market for everything is nowadays very price sensitive.
Jon |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I think the days of the "big" guitar companies are numbered, but that does NOT mean the end of great guitars. Just look at this list of folks displaying guitars in a little tiny town in the Pacific Northwest. Most of these guitars are several thousands of dollars and they seem to sell well enough. Just not in great volumes. But this is the 2nd annual festival here, and it looks almost twice the size of last year. http://laconnerguitarfestival.com/luthiers.html
At the Tacoma Guitar show last weekend, plenty of solid body builders as well. And for those who say "kids aren't into playing instruments" well just get your head out of the sand, you're not looking in the right places. There were quite a few teens and twenties that were well versed in New, Vintage, and everything in between and could play circles around most of us.
I don't know what Ovation has planned in the long term... but slimming down and limiting what they do might be just the shot in the arm they need to get on top again.
Remember, not sure if I posted this here or on Facebook, but Ovation is only a 5-year-old company. Yes, you read that right. After Fender and after closing, DW came in and essentially started from scratch. So let's see what they can do.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 704
Location: moline,illinois | Not even 5 years for DW/Ovation,purchased from FMIC in 2015 I believe with the first new models coming out for 2016 50th anniversary so this is there third year,I hope they can make a run of it but I still think discontinuing the Adamas line is a big mistake.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4044
Location: Utah | Musical instruments seem to me to be a market that never has supported massive production over any period of time. The 60's and 70's were an anomaly for guitars, and now the market is returning to what is sustainable.
There will always be an entry level market, but the number of people who continue with an instrument beyond the beginner stage will be limited. Those people will be interested in buying fine instruments, so there will always be a market for nicer instruments, but it will be a small market.
The error at KMC after the Kaman family left was to think of guitars as any other commodity. The owners worried about market share and ROI. Maybe guitar manufacturers should be satisfied with a healthy smaller business rather than trying to put a guitar in every bedroom.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | certain companies get it right
rickenbacker sells all the instruments they make they are backed up for a couple of years....don't care you want one....you wait.....
collings seems to have a good model also
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | alpep - 2018-04-29 12:51 PM
certain companies get it right
rickenbacker sells all the instruments they make they are backed up for a couple of years....don't care you want one....you wait.....
collings seems to have a good model also
I'd be happy to see Ovation in that class. 15 or so guitars per year. Maybe work up to a few Adamas per year, all custom order. Seems to work for others. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2011
Posts: 887
Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | But jgorse you could have bought a great used American made Ovation for much less than a thousand pounds. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1802
Location: When?? | For example---
On Saturday my niece (34 year-old) showed me three music videos she had made. They turned out “okay”. Many of our family play various instruments, though she does not. When I told her that she is welcome anytime to come over and record at my home studio with me and my gear, she looked at me somewhat baffled. Her reply was, “Why would I need any of that when I have this?”
Yep.. 100% of the music she used for her videos is available online for free. Thousands of tracks of beat, melody, rhythm, etc-- whatever she needed from practically any type of pre-fab instrumental sound that can be pasted together on a smart phone in one easy sitting. The combinations are endless. The only thing she added was her own singing voice. Is any of it her own original work? Nope. It’s simply painting by the numbers in terms of so-called “instrument” and choice of sound progression. Does she care? Nope. Not in the least. Do any of her many millennial-age friends care? Nope. In fact the whole lot of them applaud it like zoo seals barking for more fish. Are they willing to pay hundreds, or thousand, of dollars for instruments? Nope. At age 34 did we care? Yep. Did we buy instruments? Yep.
So here we are with the Mother Ship closing down jobs, Gibson declaring bankruptcy yesterday.. and so on. I guess that we should just be glad that we (most of us) were born when we were. Our music composition had flavor. Their composition has-- I don’t even know what-- but it sure isn’t flavor. Certainly, there are some of their generation and beyond who will continue forward with traditional musical tastes and endeavors; albeit, quite clearly not enough with desire for that real flavor to keep the mainstream instrument industry succeeding at the level it has for prior centuries. Welcome to 2018. Lazy is cool... creative work is not. The future is, obviously, not our past.
Edited by Love O Fair 2018-05-01 4:22 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2013
Posts: 101
Location: NW Indiana | Love O Fair, you nailed it. We are living in strange times ( "Lazy is cool, creative work is not" ). Sometimes I feel bad that the current generation is missing out on what we have experienced, but (and no offense meant toward your niece's generation) their attitudes are causing the the problems with Ovation and Gibson, etc. You are right that we are lucky to have been born at a time where we lived through some of the greatest music in history. I just got home from band practice where 5 old guys are recreating the music from the 60s for our 50th Class Reunion. Lots of Ovations, Gibsons, Strats and Ricks creating the mood. At Reunions of the future, a robot will probably plant a music chip in the brain while attendees dance motionlessly behind opaque glasses. Maybe by then there will even be a pill for a virtual hangover. Best wishes, and may the guitar gods save us all. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2014
Posts: 270
| Let's not get into the "kids today" trap. I can almost hear the old timers of the 60s complaning about Moog Synthesizers and those plastic Ovation guitars.
There's a lot of creativity in much of what the younger generations are doing with videos, recordings, etc., way beyond what I could ever have imagined doing, even if I could have afforded the film.
Not all of them are relying on pre-recorded music, I've seen some amazing videos with multi-track recordings made by a young person playing multiple instruments. At least Love O Fair's niece is singing and recording and, hopefully she can be coaxed into Love o Fair's studio to see what is really possible.
Edited by BCam 2018-05-02 10:54 AM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1802
Location: When?? | @BCam - "Let's not get into the "kids today" trap ... There's a lot of creativity in much of what the younger generations are doing with videos, recordings, etc."
I agree. Any art is better than no art. And what truth has always been said about art?? That it's subjective to both creator and beholder. Fair enough. This is "their" art.
But what I said about their music composition's "flavor" was not necessarily about the finished product, but rather "composition" referring to the means by which they achieve it, with so many people simply pulling the same free material off the same free rack as everyone else without even standing up, much less to purchase a tool to carve out their own, distinct sound. After a 15+ years of millions and millions of people settling on this method, in comparison to those of us who bought actual instruments (during our comparative ages), there's no possible way that this would not have direct and substantial impact on a musical instrument industry that was designed and shaped with us "old timers" and centuries of our prior ancestors in its consumer cross-hairs. It's huge, and it is obviously a very strong element in the industry's descending spiral. Henry Ford wreaked pure hell on the horse business. In turn, the edit-and-mix guys are wreaking hell on the wood, brass and catgut business.
As for the final renderings of today's methods.. heck yes.. have at it. That's just another case of subjectivity as always; age-minded or otherwise. Just different gear. I actually have a rather large collection of 2000's electronica and club mix music, some of which I've built myself. No, it's not the genre that's causing the problem. It's the lack of desire, or need, actually, to utilize a range of certain personally creative tools that not long ago were required. Which brings us to...
>>>hopefully she can be coaxed into Love o Fair's studio to see what is really possible. <<<
Oh, she will.. even if I have to drag her kicking into the booth. Great voice. But I've pretty much given up my hopes of getting anywhere much beyond "it hurts my fingers" when I hand her a guitar. We've lost her and millions of others on that count. They'll never come back.
Edited by Love O Fair 2018-05-02 1:59 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2011
Posts: 887
Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | All that matters is that we play our Ovations and sing the old songs and revel in every millisecond!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Pueblo West, CO | BCam - 2018-05-02 8:53 AM
Let's not get into the "kids today" trap. I can almost hear the old timers of the 60s complaning about Moog Synthesizers and those plastic Ovation guitars.
There's a lot of creativity in much of what the younger generations are doing with videos, recordings, etc., way beyond what I could ever have imagined doing, even if I could have afforded the film.
Not all of them are relying on pre-recorded music, I've seen some amazing videos with multi-track recordings made by a young person playing multiple instruments. At least Love O Fair's niece is singing and recording and, hopefully she can be coaxed into Love o Fair's studio to see what is really possible.
Here's one by The Academic that does exactly this. They integrated Facebook Live as part of their performance/recording of Bear Claws.The Academic - Bear Claws (Live Looper Version) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2014
Posts: 270
| And some people just don't have what it takes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxwHA9kXDKw
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | BCam - 2018-05-02 8:53 AM
Let's not get into the "kids today" trap. I can almost hear the old timers of the 60s complaning about Moog Synthesizers and those plastic Ovation guitars.
There's a lot of creativity in much of what the younger generations are doing with videos, recordings, etc., way beyond what I could ever have imagined doing, even if I could have afforded the film.
Not all of them are relying on pre-recorded music, I've seen some amazing videos with multi-track recordings made by a young person playing multiple instruments. At least Love O Fair's niece is singing and recording and, hopefully she can be coaxed into Love o Fair's studio to see what is really possible.
There is more music being made today by kids with real instruments than at any other time in history. If you aren't listening to it, or can't find it, you're looking in the wrong places.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1802
Location: When?? | My take isn't a sentimental stance. It's merely a fiscal observation. Cause and effect.
It seems I started everyone talking about "kids".. so just to clarify that the people I was referring to above aren't kids. The example I gave is a mature woman in her mid 30's with a professional career and average disposable income—and she well represents sizable, worldwide numbers of quintessential artistic consumers. And I'm not saying that this group is THE cause of guitar companies' struggles, or that ALL people that age are non-instrument buyers, but they are definitely a PART of the current industry imbalance, with a highly influential margin enough to shift essential profit numbers. And it's not just themselves. They don't buy their own kids guitars for Christmas anymore either. They buy them phones and tablets. Can't blame them. It's 2018, not 1988.
@Mr. Ovation - >>>There is more music being made today by kids with real instruments than at any other time in history.<<<
Very true. Today’s avenues of expression (YouTube, Facebook, etc.) have seen to that, along with a vast array of sources of low-to-free-cost music creation tools. Once those phones and tablets are in place-- no budget.. no problem. A wonderfully glorious scenario for many. But… the youth-types we see there are definitely not spending with Ovation (et al) for the brand new equipment that manufactures are geared to profit from.. and I haven't heard where Reverb, Ebay or Craigslist is laying anyone off or declaring bankruptcy either. I wish that my youth years had seen such great selection and price deals on quality pre-owned equipment as youngsters have available online today for their budget bracket.
The current picture is obviously painted by essential evolution of equipment and it’s associated commerce; hence, as the topic title says-- a new chapter. In the meantime, when one door closes another one opens... but it's hell in the hallway. Welcome to the hallway. And other industries have had it much worse. When’s the last time you wrote a paper-printed check to develop a roll of film for a camera you saw on sale on page E-12 of a newspaper ad?
Eventually the musical instrument platforms and business models will adjust, and a leveling point will come, but it's not today. And, sadly, those adjustments cause people in places like New Hartford to hit the unemployment line.. which is what this thread was about in the first place, right?
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I like the example of the "business model"...
Many of the "managers" of Musical Instrument Corporations have been trained in the "business model" of selling a commodity. These people think of selling guitars as the same as selling toilet paper.
And the Shareholders do not care WHAT you do, make, or sell.
They just bought the Stock for a Return on Investment.
And as to the "business model"...
They should think of guitars like an Automobile.
Or maybe think of a Guitar like a Motorcycle.
Even though guitars cost waaay less than a Motorcycle, many other facets are similar.
It is a Large investment Emotionally.
Many people give their Guitars (and cars, and motorcycles) a NAME.
Many people only own One guitar, and they will sell one guitar to buy another.
Many people are Proud to own an OLD, Used, Vintage, Guitar (or car, or motorcycle).
Finally, to the managers of companies like Gibson, or Fender, or Kaman, the MONEY is more important than the Product. That is why Kaman sold KMC. That is why Fender sold KMC.
Most Shareholders don't care if you build a Guitar, or run a Prison, they just want Money.
But a Guitar is NOT toilet paper!
This is why people who have NO Financial attachment to the "company" are still concerned when Ovation, or Gibson, is in Dire Financial Straits.
If a Guitar was a TV set, nobody would care.
Nobody is writing editorials because Zenith TV's are not made in Chicago anymore. They are not made in Mexico anymore. They are not even made at a Zenith plant anymore. They are made at the same Chinese plant as RCA, Emerson, Phillips, and other no-name TV's.
See? You do not CARE about any of Zenith's troubles.
Some famous person once said, "The Love of Money is the Root of All Evil." 
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1802
Location: When?? | @OMA - >>>Most Shareholders don't care if you build a Guitar, or run a Prison, they just want Money.<<<
Boy, ain't that the truth! And upper management will connive to great lengths to reel in debtors, or cut quality, or not pay their bills, or can employees, or whatever.. in order to have a nice stack of [other peoples'] cash to point at in luring additional investors to join, no matter what horrid things they know are about to unfold next week. Funny, though, how that same management somehow seems to have sold off their own shares just a few short months ago. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609
Location: Colorado | I run a high school. I have far more students wanting to take the guitar class we offer multiple sections of than I can reasonably accommodate. They all provide their own instruments. My school has more than 70% who are on free and reduced lunch. Ergo - they come up with a guitar - some are new and nice - some are beaters - curiously the better players play the beaters at school. Most of them take the course because they enjoy playing, and in their words - it is better than algebra.
Here is a video by some Colorado youngins I know...they are playing and working...good for them. I am working on them to play very hip roundback guitars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spTPx6L4v8Q
Edited by elginacres 2018-05-05 10:02 AM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2014
Posts: 270
| The comment about Reverb, eBay, and CL made me reflect on how much easier it is today to find a good, used guitar than in the old days of classified ads and real, non-electronic bulletin boards. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Say what you will about shareholders just wanting return on their investment, but I'll take a room full of shareholders who want a return on investment over a bank/lender who would actually prefer you fail as that is how they make money.
All businesses have shareholders. Even a sole proprietor is considered to have a 100% interest in their company. Sometimes the shareholder is the bank, sometimes it's family, sometimes it's random members of the public that want to invest. Banks are the worst because the banks have their own shareholders and they essentially make the best money if your business fails.
Back on track... DW and specifically the person that put up the money has a vested interest in Ovation succeeding over time. If they are to be successful, they need to find their audience. That's not going to be easy. Remember, they are only a few years old and a lot of damage was done to the brand. In that same time, marketing and sales dynamics have changed too.
It's sad to see our friends laid off, but at the same time, most were close to retirement and likely got a nice little severance to tide them over. Frankly giving "early retirements" is a true sign of trying to make a go of it either by getting lean and focused or by being in a position to sell. Either way is much better than those people showing up for work one day to chain on the door.
As someone said... it looks like a new door is opening.. I'm excited and a little nervous to see what's on the other side. It doesn't look like Ovation as a brand is going anywhere any time soon. A few years ago, we didn't think we'd ever see a new Ovation again, so I think we're on the right trajectory.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 815
Location: Colorado | Mr. Ovation - 2018-04-29 8:08 PM alpep - 2018-04-29 12:51 PM certain companies get it right rickenbacker sells all the instruments they make they are backed up for a couple of years....don't care you want one....you wait..... collings seems to have a good model also I'd be happy to see Ovation in that class. 15 or so guitars per year. Maybe work up to a few Adamas per year, all custom order. Seems to work for others. +1. Maybe a few more a year...anniversary models could be included in that. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2015
Posts: 190
Location: SW Mintsoda | Isn't the real issue lack of visibility of Ovations today in popular players hands?
There are plenty of well known - and less well known but respected - artists (in Nashville and New York and L.A., etc.) regularly getting on stage with Martins, Gibsons and, yes, Taylors. All of these are now powered by pickups that rival what's in an Ovation. So fans see what their idols are playing, and that's what they want to play.
Simple. If there were MORE high visibility artists (because there are a few, like Kaki King and even ol' Al DiMeola) playing and applauding Ovations (see what I did there?), it would increase demand and - TA-DA - sales!
That is Ovation's biggest challenge. Getting Ovations in the hands of the right people who will sell them by virtue of simply playing them publicly.
Edited by 360Ovation 2018-05-11 12:01 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1802
Location: When?? | @360Ovation - >>>So fans see what their idols are playing, and that's what they want to play.<<<
I think a lot of us ended up with our O's and A's on that concept of exposure. But it's still a money gamble to some point. If DW GIVES the famous artist a high-end guitar worthy of the artist's talent and popularity, and the artist chooses to not use it in public, it's a lo$t goner. And if DW requires them to use it public, even if they don't officially endorse it, the fee for just that even starts to get pretty steep.. and with still no sure guarantee that it would be fruitful. With full endorsement comes full cost.. and how much money is DW willing to spend for that? Good question. Who knows? Maybe it'll happen.
Then again, DW could simply hand out a few lower-cost Asian models to a handful of lesser-than-famous, yet very successful, YouTubers who get millions of views by millions of loyal and devoted fans' eyes, and who would be grateful to receive the guitar and promote the brand. That could be a lot of cheap advertising.. until.. that same kid gets a big ego head over the whole matter and decides to go out one day and pummel a sidewalk full of nuns with it. Damn, there's that gamble again. Squeeze the air out of one end of the balloon and it goes straight to the other. Such is business risk.
But yeah.. +1 on the basis of your post. Campbell sold a lot.. a LOT.. of guitars.
Edited by Love O Fair 2018-05-11 1:46 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | LOF-- I heard a Rumor that KMC never GAVE an Ovation to anyone to play for "exposure".
The rumor states that the people who you see Playing Ovations BOUGHT those Ovations.
They may be custom order, and they might have been hand-delivered, but they were not Free.
Melissa Etheridge has a story about Buying her first Ovation.
Also, most people nowadays do not watch videos of anyone PLAYING instruments.
(only musicians care what anybody is playing)
Even Country Videos are generally not stage performances. 
|
|
| |
A new chapter???
