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Location: Phoenix AZ | I don't think anyone is questioning that Ovation has had a history of success. Obviously Fender recognized that and I think it's quite an achievement to grow a company from a helicopter spin-off to something worthy of aquisition by arguably the largest musical instrument manufacturer and distributor in the world. Well done, I say.
We don't see real Ovations in music stores or catalogs, and we don't see endorsees. But that does not mean the product is not successful. Probably the shops are always sold out of the higher end models and you need to be lucky enough to be there on the day the next one arrives. The lack of endorsees is also understandable. Unlike Taylor, Martin and Takamine I think that Ovation doesn't need visibility, signature models, market hype and artist endoresements to sell their products. Basically they sell themselves based on reputation, performance and value. Probably they could not meet all future demand by limiting production to the relatively small US factory, so the exodus of production to larger and more cost effective Asian manufacturing plants is understandable.
I don't think you can call Ovation anything other than a huge success. |
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Location: Verona,Italy | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
I don't think anyone is questioning that Ovation has had a history of success. Obviously Fender recognized that and I think it's quite an achievement to grow a company from a helicopter spin-off to something worthy of aquisition by arguably the largest musical instrument manufacturer and distributor in the world. Well done, I say.
We don't see real Ovations in music stores or catalogs, and we don't see endorsees. But that does not mean the product is not successful. Probably the shops are always sold out of the higher end models and you need to be lucky enough to be there on the day the next one arrives. The lack of endorsees is also understandable. Unlike Taylor, Martin and Takamine I think that Ovation doesn't need visibility, signature models, market hype and artist endoresements to sell their products. Basically they sell themselves based on reputation, performance and value. Probably they could not meet all future demand by limiting production to the relatively small US factory, so the exodus of production to larger and more cost effective Asian manufacturing plants is understandable.
I don't think you can call Ovation anything other than a huge success. I disagree with your opinion about endorsers: they are important in this business, and we know that Ovation arrived where they are also thanks to people like Campbell, DI Meola, Malmsteen etc..etc...
I also think that unfortunately in the last 10 yeras they didn't introduce any radical change in design, for instance, a larger guitar, therefore today the brand is perceived as static from most of the guitarists, and it's not good. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Unless I've missed something ... I havent seen any radical changes in any of the other box guitar manufacturers either.
I do however believe endorsers are important, as they encourage others who want to sound like their favorites. But ... on the other hand, I didn't choose Ovations because someone else was playing them. I chose them because they impressed me first with the "look", then the high-tech marketing spooh. Then eventually when I was able to FIND one and play it, I loved the thing. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | endorsers are more important to other brands cause they all look the same.
when a performer plays an ovation/adamas you don't have to squint to see a name on the headstock.
you know what it is! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by cuthbert:
I disagree with your opinion about endorsers: they are important in this business, and we know that Ovation arrived where they are also thanks to people like Campbell, DI Meola, Malmsteen etc..etc...    
   
Not to mention a half-dozen dead folks... These artists don't sound the same.
I don't care if Ovations are taken-up by the next generation of artists since I don't like most of their music anyway. You realize that the average non-player has no idea what a Larivee is.... Or a Parker... or even an Adamas! Everybody on stage has a Takamine nowadays...
"endorsers are more important to other brands cause they all look the same.
when a performer plays an ovation/adamas you don't have to squint to see a name on the headstock.
you know what it is!" Amen! |
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Location: Brisbane,Australia | The biggest problem is that non-Ovation players have been and still have a problem with Ovation. Someone comes up with a good idea, immediate suspision sets in. And you have the orthodox traditionists sitting by the side lines smiling smuggly, holding their Martin, Taylor,Breedlove etc. It's ok to come up with a new innovation but don't you dare let on that you can use something besides wood to build a guitar. It makes me remember reading about Charlie Karman when he rocked up at Martin and offered to buy the place! What guts! Taking them head on! And when they said no, just pressing on and doing it his way.
As far as the evolution of Ovation I don't think the product has to constantly change. People still start getting all shifty when I I walk into a music store and ask about Ovation. They look at me and think, ' you poor kid, here play this guitar and forget about those silly plastic guitars you just mentioned ' |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by bvince:
Unless I've missed something ... I havent seen any radical changes in any of the other box guitar manufacturers either. Excellent point. Geez, does a modern day Martin look any different than one 60 years old, other than one less zero on the price tag?
I think endorsees might help to get a few people to LOOK at a certain guitar, or maybe remember the name. But shite is shite and if the guitar can't sell on it's own merits, the it just ain't gonna sell. |
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Location: Verona,Italy | Originally posted by RomanS:
The biggest problem is that non-Ovation players have been and still have a problem with Ovation. Someone comes up with a good idea, immediate suspision sets in. And you have the orthodox traditionists sitting by the side lines smiling smuggly, holding their Martin, Taylor,Breedlove etc. It's ok to come up with a new innovation but don't you dare let on that you can use something besides wood to build a guitar. It makes me remember reading about Charlie Karman when he rocked up at Martin and offered to buy the place! What guts! Taking them head on! And when they said no, just pressing on and doing it his way.
As far as the evolution of Ovation I don't think the product has to constantly change. People still start getting all shifty when I I walk into a music store and ask about Ovation. They look at me and think, ' you poor kid, here play this guitar and forget about those silly plastic guitars you just mentioned ' True, most of them really HATE us and our guitars, I've been told several times by so called experts that I understood nothing of guitars because I chose an Ovation...endorsers are useful because they prove they are wrong, that's the point!
You can't convince them playing your instrument because they simply refuse, but if for instance, you tell them that '39 was recorded on a Ovation Pacemaker, and the guy is a fan of Queen, he MAY revisit his position, or at least you'll see a crack in his armour. |
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Location: Verona,Italy | ]Excellent point. Geez, does a modern day Martin look any different than one 60 years old, other than one less zero on the price tag? Yes. VERY different! Think about their product offering, it's capilllar...they have so many models that you can't even believe so many options are available, they have very good electronics, the quality is also improved IMO...not to mention that now they have a truss rod! :D :D :D |
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Location: Tennessee | Last time I looked, Ovation had 85 endorsees on their website. You gotta quit looking at the folk players and old tired hippies and holding them up as market leaders ... if you want to be like them, play Taylors or Martins. The people innovating in the music world today are playing innovative guitars ... not all of the "other" brands mentioned here. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by stonebobbo:
The people innovating in the music world today are playing innovative guitars ... not all of the "other" brands mentioned here. Other than Scratch-me King who's innovating on an Ovation? Oh wait, didn't the fat guy from "Lost" play a red legend? |
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Location: Utah | Innovation. Now that's an out-of-date word for Ovation. The plastic roundback was innovative 40 years ago. Carbon fiber was innovative 40 years ago. Multi-hole epaulets were innovative, yes, 40 years ago.
And yet Rainsong advertises that they are the first carbon fiber guitar. OK, maybe the first all carbon fiber, but the ad leaves the impression that they are the first to use carbon fiber in a guitar.
Active electronics? Innovative in the Breadwinner and Preacher Deluxe, 40 years ago. Copied in the 90's and today especially in high gain metal circles.
Let's see. Narrower nut and thinner neck so that an acoustic plays more like an electric. Innovative 40 friggin years ago. Now every acoustic maker is on that bandwagon.
Piezo pickups built in under the saddle? On board battery powered preamps in acoustic guitars? Yup, all innovative 40 years ago, brought to us by KMC.
If 40 years of success doesn't define tradition, what does? If hordes of copy-cat products don't define industry standard design, what does? If a full palette of endorsed artists of every genre doesn't define mainstream professional acceptance, what does?
KMC continues to refine and innovate, but why is there such an image that O's and A's are experimental oddball instruments, not really for the mainstream musician? |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Boy Serge, you've stirred the pot now. ;) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I love threads like this. You can pretty much say whatever you want and nobody can prove you wrong.
I still say the the biggest impediment to Ovation being the world dominant most sought after and admired brand is the plastic bowl. No matter how you shape it, how much carving you put on the trim, now much abalone rings the top it's still plastic and far too "different" for most people to take seriously. But that's what makes it an "ovation", I get that. Best to appreciate ovations for what they are and not lose sleep that people don't consider them in the class as wooden guitars. In the end what does it matter. Just play the guitar you love and be done with it. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by cuthbert:
True, most of them really HATE us and our guitars, I've been told several times by so called experts that I understood nothing of guitars because I chose an Ovation...endorsers are useful because they prove they are wrong, that's the point!
Experts don't bother me. I tell them I own Collings, Martins, Bourgeois, ADAMAS and to just shut the f**k up cause I play what sounds best to me. I could care less what some wanker thinks. |
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Location: Up North | Anyone who passes judgment on an instrument by what logo's on the headstock before even listening to it, can't be much of an expert. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | FTFF |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I agree with the previous comment that Ovations sell themselves!! There is so much pent up demand for their better playing models, rare collector's pieces and virtually ANY Adamas I that if Ovation closed their doors tomorrow it would be 'business-as-usual' here for the foreseeable.
Anyone that has ever held an Adamas in their hands knows that undeniable buzz the first time you strum one.... NOTHING ELSE sounds like that and I doubt anything else ever will!!
It is rare meeting of brilliant design, skilled execution and cutting-edge use of materials that discerning players will ALWAYS gravitate to.
How could you possibly improve on what is already there (... and why would you try?)!!
As I said in a previous post... every music store I go into now has 50 Taylors hanging on the wall. How could they possibly be building them to the standards that their reputaion implies when they are cranking them out like Big Macs... Don't believe me, take one down off the wall and try one... Then compare what you here to an Adamas. End of... |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I agree with the previous comment that Ovations sell themselves!! There is so much pent up demand for their better playing models, rare collector's pieces and virtually ANY Adamas I that if Ovation closed their doors tomorrow it would be 'business-as-usual' here for the foreseeable.
Anyone that has ever held an Adamas in their hands knows that undeniable buzz the first time you strum one.... NOTHING ELSE sounds like that and I doubt anything else ever will!!
It is a rare meeting of brilliant design, skilled execution and cutting-edge use of materials that discerning players will ALWAYS gravitate to.
How could you possibly improve on what is already there (... and why would you try?)!!
As I said in a previous post... every music store I go into now has 50 Taylors hanging on the wall. How could they possibly be building them to the standards that their reputation implies when they are cranking them out like Big Macs... Don't believe me, take one down off the wall and try one... Then compare what you hear to an Adamas. End of... |
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Location: Texas | I know TJ, this is great.
My session had no Ovations involved, these comments were just conversations with friends and other players about Ovations that came down to the various opinions...
And most of these great players use various guitars but still have an Ovation or two from the 70"s and 80's that they used for awhile...and still keep around in their arsenal...
Every guitar is like an individual instrument, It's the same regardless of whether the guitar is a Gibson Les Paul, a Fender Strat or a Martin acoustic. Each individual instrument seems to have this character and in-built virtuosity of its own. If you're lucky enough to pick one up and play it and own it, it can take you another ten miles down the road. Once it stops taking you down the road it's time to move on to the next one. My career has been divided up with those instruments. I had a fantastic Martin D-18 when I played bluegrass in the 70s, but it was stolen and I was never able to replace that. I have a fantastic 1965 Gibson ES-175D with a sunburst finish that I bought in 2007. I can get pretty obsessive, so I try to play my guitars in moderation and I spend a bit of time with each instrument.
In the end it is up to the individual to decide what works for you or doesn't.
And I still believe that the Ovation concept is a valid one and it is what it is. Like Dave said, you either love it or hate it.
A while back I decided to keep just THE one Ovation for my style and as the one and only O flavor in my arsenal.
So I chose it and love it, my Custom Legend cutaway.
It does everything I ask for and more.....waaaaaaaay more.
Next, it will be a super shallow bowl 1881 Adamas cutaway...
Cheers,
Serge |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by cuthbert:
...endorsers are useful because they prove they are wrong, that's the point!
Right ... like when a whore tells you that you sure pack a big one and you sure are a great lover, it proves all your old girlfriends were wrong.
Bill Clinton and John Kerry are Taylor "artists". That'll prove to Moody that his opinion of Taylor guitars is dead wrong.
Originally posted by FlySig:
Innovation. Now that's an out-of-date word for Ovation. (snip) innovative 40 years ago ... (snip) innovative 40 years ago ... (snip) innovative, yes, 40 years ago ... (snip) Innovative (snip) 40 years ago. (snip) Innovative 40 friggin years ago. (snip) Yup, all innovative 40 years ago ... Huh? What about Lyracord GS? Virtual image processors built into the onboard preamp? The Advanced neck system? The contour bowl? The iDea preamp? The new set neck built into the 08C and the OFCII? CVT tops? The alpep boost button?
For what it's worth, Ovation USA's manufacturing methods and underlying technology have COMPLETELY changed over the last five or six years to a totally new method and new materials. It was a paradigm shift of unprecedented proportions. I believe EVERYthing being produced today are based on the new technology. And if you ask me, the new guitars sound way better than almost anything that's ever come before. It may not look a lot different, but these are not your father's Ovation and they totally blow his old roundback away.
Well there you go. If you want your guitar to conjure up Jim Croce before he augered in, or John Denver before he augered in, or Cat Stevens before he started facing east five times a day, or Glen Campbell when he still wore leisure suits, then yeah, Ovation should just pack up the tents and close down the circus. 90% of that market is already over in the Martin or Taylor camp anyway.
Originally posted by Gallerinski:
I love threads like this. You can pretty much say whatever you want and nobody can prove you wrong. (snip) Best to appreciate ovations for what they are and not lose sleep that people don't consider them in the class as wooden guitars. In the end what does it matter. Just play the guitar you love and be done with it. Truer words were never spoken. This topic comes up every few months and all it proves is that we all have different opinions and we look at our Ovations in just as many different ways.
Originally posted by Country Artist:
And I still believe that the Ovation concept is a valid one and it is what it is. You and me both. |
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Location: Verona,Italy | Originally posted by Grif:
Anyone who passes judgment on an instrument by what logo's on the headstock before even listening to it, can't be much of an expert. Please re-read my post, I used the expression "so called" experts... :p :p :p |
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Location: Verona,Italy | Right ... like when a whore tells you that you sure pack a big one and you sure are a great lover, it proves all your old girlfriends were wrong.
Bill Clinton and John Kerry are Taylor "artists". That'll prove to Moody that his opinion of Taylor guitars is dead wrong.
I really don't understand which problem you have with my statement, the first thing that Kaman did was to look for whores, ehm endorsers to prove that his instruments had some qualities, if he was following your concept of marketing Ovation would have shut down before 1970.
Having endorsers, real professionals is important in this business because it's natural for the guitarists to imitate their guitar heroes, not my words but Clapton's, who took his Strat after having listened to Hendrix, and Blackmore took switched after having listened to Clapton, I assume that you consider these two on pair with customers who go out whoring because they need to be "re-assured" of their measures... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Having said that, if a professional records a great hit with a certain sound, I look for that sound, and a disc is a relatively objective argument to use in a gear discussion, of course we are talking about important guitarists, no amateurs like Clinton and Kerry whose real job is politics, not music. |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by stonebobbo:
Originally posted by FlySig:
Innovation. Now that's an out-of-date word for Ovation. (snip) innovative 40 years ago ... (snip) innovative 40 years ago ... (snip) innovative, yes, 40 years ago ... (snip) Innovative (snip) 40 years ago. (snip) Innovative 40 friggin years ago. (snip) Yup, all innovative 40 years ago ... Huh? What about Lyracord GS? Virtual image processors built into the onboard preamp? The Advanced neck system? The contour bowl? The iDea preamp? The new set neck built into the 08C and the OFCII? CVT tops? The alpep boost button?
For what it's worth, Ovation USA's manufacturing methods and underlying technology have COMPLETELY changed over the last five or six years to a totally new method and new materials. It was a paradigm shift of unprecedented proportions. I believe EVERYthing being produced today are based on the new technology. And if you ask me, the new guitars sound way better than almost anything that's ever come before. It may not look a lot different, but these are not your father's Ovation and they totally blow his old roundback away.
What I was trying to say is that there seems to be a public image that Ovations are a mediocre attempt at modernizing or innovating the 'accepted design' of the acoustic guitar. The salesmen at GC don't help that image, either.
All the things you mentioned are the new innovations, but are lost in the noise of the general image of the plastic roundback.
Rainsong is promoting their use of carbon fiber as if it is some new 21st century idea. Adamas was there 40 years ago and is now many miles down the road with improvements, refinements, and further innovations.
I guess what I am trying to say is that the Ovation/Adamas concept is now interwoven into the mainstream of modern guitar design and manufacture. Yet the image is out there that it is some quirky newfangled idea. The news isn't the roundback or the built in electronics. The news is that KMC has taken those concepts which they pioneered 40+ years ago and steadily improved, refined, and further innovated. |
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All Ovations sound the same...
