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Location: Boise, Idaho | I finally met OMA last year and he fit my perception of him as a crusty old fart, which is a term of respect by me. Maybe the best anyone would get from me. Anyway, I recognize his concern that Ovation could lose its market share even more to offshore companies that might not be on the up and up. I am also guilty of wanting to keep the traditions, even though I bought my first Ovation in 1977 because the company was innovative and bucked the traditions. Maybe it was a function of growing up in the 60s, or maybe it's just a function of getting old.
Although I'd like to see Ovation return to its former glory, I'd be happy if it just grew its US operations with some products that were artful and edgy. |
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| Mark in Boise - 2016-01-10 10:05 AM I am also guilty of wanting to keep the traditions, even though I bought my first Ovation in 1977 because the company was innovative and bucked the traditions. Maybe it was a function of growing up in the 60s, or maybe it's just a function of getting old. Although I'd like to see Ovation return to its former glory, I'd be happy if it just grew its US operations with some products that were artful and edgy.
I also would love to see US operations grow, but I suspect that quite a few US guitar makers wouldn't be able to continue with their US production work without the financial support of their foreign-made instrument divisions. Martin is an iconic American brand, and I suspect that they make more on the non-US products than on the high-end US models. Regarding a return to tradition, I'd be completely happy to see what Ovation could do with lighter carbon fiber composite for the bowls, but retaining the old birch sandwich top and suspension. Really, it seems even the Spax bowls are lighter than the fiberglass, so that would be even more interesting, but the birch sandwich and the suspension are two (of many) features which really make the old Adamas line fundamentally different from much of what other companies have done. ---- It was interesting to run across a topic on a different forum, quoting an anonymous inside source at Ovation mentioning Charlie Kaman sourcing things from the Philippines when doing R&D. This instrument, from the '60s-'70s, has a wood back, possibly rosewood from the look in the photos from the inside which include the label, but with a shiny finish over the outside of the bowl. 
Maybe the person will join and post a topic here, as suggested to them.
It's interesting to see another wood-bowled instrument coming from direct interaction with Ovation. It's like reading a chart with the various winding branches connecting different prog rock bands, as well as bands descending from them.
---- I'm aware of another builder who is making Ovation-style wood-backed instruments for students of the Robert Fripp Guitar Craft courses, but there was no direct contact with Ovation, as far as I'm aware. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Keep in mind that Ovation didn't invent the bowl-back guitar. Charlie was the first one to make them out of fiberglass instead of the traditional wood.
The bowl-back guitar was a transition from the traditional lute to the current flat-back we all know today. Way back when, the transitional bowl-back guitar was called a vaulted back guitar. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Explorer - 2016-01-10 4:21 PM
It was interesting to run across a topic on a different forum, quoting an anonymous inside source at Ovation mentioning Charlie Kaman sourcing things from the Philippines when doing R&D. This instrument, from the '60s-'70s, has a wood back, possibly rosewood from the look in the photos from the inside which include the label, but with a shiny finish over the outside of the bowl.
Maybe the person will join and post a topic here, as suggested to them.
It's interesting to see another wood-bowled instrument coming from direct interaction with Ovation. It's like reading a chart with the various winding branches connecting different prog rock bands, as well as bands descending from them.
First... That is not an Ovation. That is not even a good copy of an Ovation.
Second... Charlie didn't go looking for someone to make Wood Bowl guitars.
If he wanted wood bowl Ovations, where are the Prototypes?
Third... Asia doesn't lead to ELO to ELP to Rush to Yes to Zappa, or vice-versa.
Nor is there I direct progression between all guitars with round backs.
There are round-back guitars that are older than the Ovation guitar.
But many recent round back guitars are obvious copies of Ovation.
You cannot say that Ovations suck... then try to copy them.
Remember... Imitation is the Sincerest form of Flattery
As Dan points-out, there were round back stringed instruments before there were wood-boxes.
I don't believe that is the reason for Ovation's bowl shape.
I believe that is because the spherical shape is sturdy, and does not need internal braces.
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I have always found it interesting that what we consider the "traditional" square/flat back guitar is the "standard." The primary reason for the flat back guitar was ease of mass production. As time went on, many or most tried to make that shape better. I believe Charlie's approach was more.. "how can I make a better guitar" and rounding the back just made the most sense. I don't think it was even a nod to the early guitars, but simply for strength, and vibration, and projection, and now that things like Fiberglass and similar tech existed.... ease of mass production as well. I have posted the research many times... but the first actual instruments to be called "guitar" had round backs.
As far as copies, there are many. More and more are showing up, but they have always been around. Remember way back 15 years ago, we didn't have Facebook, and the WWW certainly wasn't as worldwide as the name would infer and well, they were in places that most of us never heard of. Now with the invent of CNC technology, copies are even more prevalent, and sorry to say, they are good. Not so much for acoustic guitars, but for electrics it's pretty out of control. It's one thing to copy a Les Paul which it seems everyone is looking out for... even some of the copies are pretty amazing... but there are PRS, Ibanez, BC Rich, Schecter, etc copies that are arguably nearly indistinguishable from the originals, or at least good enough to invest in and just swap out the crap electronics and hardware for decent stuff and you saved a boatload of $'s.
Anyway... the origins and history of Ovation is well documented. Pretty safe to say that most any composite material roundback is a copy. Wood round backs are just nods to the original guitar design as it should be. I think it's very clever that folks like Spax and others have found ways to improve on the Original Wood round back. But as stated, Ovation was never a copy of the original wood roundbacks, it just kinda happened. Much like if someone suggested an engineer "reinvent the wheel"... it would likely end up being round. |
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Location: Texas | For you experienced folks... Does anyone every win a p!ssing contest? |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Would the Spax (wood based) bowls be imperious to moisture and heat like the Ovation Bowls?
i am curious if these backs would have higher maintenance being wood, one of the selling points of the Ovation Bowl is the strength for traveling, and touring, as opposed to a standard wood back.
Are they bonded with a resin type material that handles that? What would be the advantage of using this back as opposed to the normal bowl currently used? Are costs cheaper, and how would they be with the additional work of the lattice design and mfg'ing of the Spax bowl? Does this back change, or affect the sound or vibration??
Please note, I would really like to know, I am not questioning progress or change, but want to understand the reason and theory behind a proposed change. |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | jay - 2016-01-10 10:36 PM
For you experienced folks... Does anyone every win a p!ssing contest?
I am not equipped mentally, or physically to participate in one, but from what I have heard, it has something to do with which way the wind is blowing.  |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Nancy - 2016-01-10 8:45 PM
What would be the advantage of using this back as opposed to the normal bowl currently used?
The major advantage of the Plywood Back is to avoid lawsuits.
It seems that Spax was a Celebrity manufacturer (under license, or course).
So basically Spax is trying to copy it's own version of Celebrity (sans license)
and plywood avoids the lawsuit.
Also... These plywood backs have been around for Years.
They have been discussed on the OFC before.
In none of those conversations did anyone say the the plywood bowls sounded Better. 
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2016-01-10 11:59 PM
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| Nancy - 2016-01-10 8:45 PM
Would the Spax (wood based) bowls be imperious to moisture and heat like the Ovation Bowls?
i am curious if these backs would have higher maintenance being wood, one of the selling points of the Ovation Bowl is the strength for traveling, and touring, as opposed to a standard wood back.
Are they bonded with a resin type material that handles that? What would be the advantage of using this back as opposed to the normal bowl currently used? Are costs cheaper, and how would they be with the additional work of the lattice design and mfg'ing of the Spax bowl? Does this back change, or affect the sound or vibration??
I have to admit, I don't treat my two Hohners in a way which would damage the solid spruce top, so if I need to use a guitar which is impervious to moisture and humidity extremes, I'll grab one of the Rainsongs.
The layers are bound by resin.
I think the sound of these instruments relies more in the top, and the shape of the backs and sides, than the material used for the backs and sides. Over the years, there has been more than one blind test on various acoustic guitar forums where members were unable to consistently identify what woods were used for the backs/sides beyond what was predicted by chance/guessing.
I do remember that somewhere on the Spax site, there is mention of possibly using different combinations of wood in the woven lattice, but all the instruments specifications I've seen so far refer to the woven alder.
Regarding any contest regarding that Philippines-made instrument, I have no reason to doubt what that forum member shared regarding the information given to him in a phone call from an Ovation luthier. I won't presume to have first-hand knowledge of what Charlie Kaman would or definitively would not do.
Neither do I claim to have first hand knowledge of the development of the patented Spax CWSA back, nor of why Ovation would be working with them if they instead wanted to file a lawsuit. I do welcome learning of first hand details, if these are actual facts instead of baseless assertions.
Just as a comment, when I specified "the various winding branches connecting different prog rock bands, as well as bands descending from them," I wasn't saying that all bands had descended from each other. That's why "descending" bands were an additional clause. However, in a great irony, four of the six names given as a counterexample (Asia, ELP, Yes, Zappa) have branches connecting them to King Crimson (Wetton, Lake, Bruford, Belew).
Thanks to DanSavage and Mr. Ovation for the informative comments!
Edited by Explorer 2016-01-11 12:53 AM
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Explorer, while I don't doubt someone said something... the assertion that any US company was doing any "contracting" with the Philippines in the 60/70's is suspicious. That is anything more than the Military presence we held there. FWIW, I was there. There were some copies of solid-body guitars being made and some acoustics... but getting anything legally in or out of the country actually took an act of Congress during much of that timeframe. The only R&D Kaman may have been doing there is testing how helo's take off and land in the tropics or in typhoons. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | My concerns about all of this (other than Nancy mixing up her metaphors and trying to have a pissing contest into the wind) is that Ovation doesn't get ripped off. I don't know if anyone during the Fender occupation did anything to protect the patents and trademarks and I don't think we, as the Ovation Fan Club, should be supporting any company if it is infringing. I don't know whether Spax is or isn't infringing, but that confusion is one of the signs of infringement. |
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| Since Ovation posted the photo of the CWSA back combined with the Ovation neck on the Ovation Facebook page... There is no reason to doubt that Ovation is on board.
Until there is evidence to the contrary, like that their Facebook account got hacked at the same time that neck got put on that body, is there confusion from the horse's mouth on this?
Other than Ovation's words and actions, everything else (including my own ideas) have been speculation about where Ovation stands on this. Once you take the rest away, the evidence shows Ovation being willing to post the photo.
If people feel hostile towards Ovation for doing so, that's their right.
----
And again, I have no reason to doubt the story of the call from an Ovation luthier, and no first hand knowledge of what decisions Charlie Kaman would make on his own. I've never been an Ovation employee, not even during the time frame for that instrument, so I'm open to information coming from within Ovation on that.
Edited by Explorer 2016-01-11 10:18 AM
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Explorer, the problem is that "within Ovation" isn't really "within Ovation" anymore. I'm sure you know that DW saved Ovation from extinction and a handful of employees stayed. As far as I know, those weren't the employees who were on the management end, they were the employees who built guitars and did warranty work. Most of the management from Charlie's era moved on in one way or another or left during the Fender era or when they shut down the New Hartford operation.
So I don't think you can assume what you saw on Ovation's Facebook page has any significance as far as where Ovation stands. It's trying to get back up and running and might not know where it stands on this right now. |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Mark in Boise - 2016-01-11 9:56 AM
My concerns about all of this (other than Nancy mixing up her metaphors and trying to have a pissing contest into the wind)
LOL!!!!!! For some really strange reason, I am quite proud that I did not know the right answer! |
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| The bowl on the picture is wood, its like a salad bowl. Its just an experiment that we are playing with. It most likely will never see the light of day because it has at this point no sonic advantage and its too stiff. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | xraiderman - 2016-01-11 7:58 PM
...at this point no sonic advantage and its too stiff.
Yep. |
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| That's all I can say about that  |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | xraiderman - 2016-01-11 10:26 PM
That's all I can say about that
Thank You BillX!!!! |
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| Mark in Boise - 2016-01-11 9:26 AM
Explorer, the problem is that "within Ovation" isn't really "within Ovation" anymore. I'm sure you know that DW saved Ovation from extinction and a handful of employees stayed. As far as I know, those weren't the employees who were on the management end, they were the employees who built guitars and did warranty work. Most of the management from Charlie's era moved on in one way or another or left during the Fender era or when they shut down the New Hartford operation.
So I don't think you can assume what you saw on Ovation's Facebook page has any significance as far as where Ovation stands. It's trying to get back up and running and might not know where it stands on this right now.
I can't say from first hand knowledge who at the current Ovation knows about Charlie Kaman's actions. I take it that you're saying from first hand knowledge that none of them would know about such. Is that correct?
Using your logic of where Ovation stands on anything, the 50th models aren't necessarily really from Ovation. There's no argument for or against one which isn't true for the other, and that's confusing.
That's a lot of babies to through out in order to discount the bathwater, at least without relying on special pleading.
In any case, i'm happy to be patient and see where this goes. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | After re-reading all this and seeing xRaiders response, I think we ALL need to take a step back and think about things for a moment.
In the past, Ovation was EXTREMELY hush hush on anything they were doing. We would get little bits and pieces here and there, but that's about it. And even with the bits and pieces it was all pure speculation. Now I'm sure there will still be plenty of things still under wraps, but Ovation is embracing the global connection they have through us and social media in general like any manufacturer worth their salt should. It's not design by committee, but more just sharing the process. We don't need to jump on every tidbit like it's some big secret because there are, will be, and have been LOTS of tidbits. Speculating on which might turn into something interesting... that's our new role in all this, and frankly, it seems like it's more fun. I LOVE watching the creative process. It's why I had a recording studio. It's why I love factory tours. It's why I go to conventions. I LOVE not only knowing how the sausage is made, but how they decided they wanted sausage in the first place.
So back to this photo we've been discussing, and combined others and with the words from xRaiderman... I'm pretty stoked to see what Ovation ultimately turns out in 2016 and beyond. From the DW side of the house they obviously know about how sound resonates different materials on drums... and combine that with the knowledge of how sound resonates on different materials on guitars from the guys in CT, and a whole company and culture involved and focused on innovation.... even the most crusty of curmudgeons gotta be say'n.... "This is gonna be fun !!" |
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Location: Jet City | So, DW/Ovation's making sausage now?
I'm waiting for them to do a bowl hollowed out of 1500 year old Romanian River Oak. Neil says it's the shiznit. |
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| If we do make sausage it will be awesome and go good with an Ovation Pilsner.... |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Beer and Brats, life-blood of the Upper Midwest! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Explorer - 2016-01-12 9:12 AM
Using your logic of where Ovation stands on anything, the 50th models aren't necessarily really from Ovation.
As far as I know, the 50th Anniversary models were made (are being made) by the same people who made my Elite T's, Adamii and 40th Anniversary Balladeer...
I do have some guitars from the 70's and 80's that I am not sure if the builders are still at New Hartford.
But a quick check through the Grand Re-opening threads will give you a run-down of who is still at the Factory and how much experience they each have building Ovations.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2016-01-12 3:26 PM
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Ovation and Spax partnership?
