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Location: south east Michigan | Maybe I'm wrong but the imports might be the only thing about Ovation that has a chance at making a profit.
That branding the imports as an Ovation genie is out of the bottle.
Relaunch all USA models as an Adamas. Make them worthy of the name.
The Adamas name will still carry some weight with the people that know better.
Edited by Slipkid 2015-04-04 10:31 AM
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Location: Indiana | "There are always... possibilities"
Spock |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Keep the imports for the beginners. For the price they really aren't that bad. Call them Celebrities or Applause.
Make something like the Elite T as your mid-priced offering.
Make a couple of higher-end wood guitars, one with a center soundhole, one with the elite soundholes
Make Textured top Adamas for the highest-end.
As far as getting them into the hands of the "stars", didn't someone start a thread here a couple of weeks ago about how they are seeing NEW videos of newer "stars" playing Ovations?
Back in the day, even the "stars" BOUGHT their Ovations. Gibson GIVES them to people. They even give them to TV shows for product placement advertising. If the resurrected Ovation did that people would start seeking Ovations.
Don't sell the brand short. WE know they are wonderful guitars and if we could get them into the hands of other guitarists (those who have never even SEEN a USA Ovation), they too will know what fantastic guitars they are. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | merlin666 - 2015-04-04 7:39 AM
...bad reputation current Asian models...
One thing about that... The Asian factories will make you EXACTLY what you spec them to make.
All of our computers and cell phones are manufactured in Asia and they work just fine.
(and TV's, and vacuum cleaners, and microwave ovens, and coffee makers, and everything else...)
I have owned some Great guitars that were made in China, Korea, and Indonesia.
Blaming Asia for corporate choices is a cop-out.
Korean Ovations could have bolt-on necks like the USA models...
Chinese Ovations could be made with good wood...
Business decisions were made to make crappy guitars in Asia.
The Celebrity line was an intentionally cheaper copy of Ovation before someone else did it.
The Celebrity line originally had the "Celebrity" name on the headstock.
Business decision were made to change that logo to Ovation before FMIC.
Those decisions were made by the same profit motive by the Kaman pencil pushers.
I have some Epiphones, Steinbergers, Travelers, a Morgan Monroe and a Hamer...
I also have owned some nice "CSE" Celebrity models.
All were made in Asia. All are great guitars.
Don't blame Asia... Americans chose to order a crappy product.
Americans invented the concept of Timed Obsolescence.
Pencil Pushers invented the idea of New Models every year (Henry Ford was against it).
Poor quality Ovations come from Asia because that is what was ordered.
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Location: Texas | w/o the celebrity's, FMIC would have shelved O a lot sooner. Those models were in the sweet spot of what kids can afford today. We might have lost the factory years before we did, had it not been for those cheap assed Asian guitars. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | The requirements necessary to resurrect the brand are much more complex than most of us understand or want to believe. I think back about all the tooling and skill and stock that no longer exists in New Hartford, both upstairs and downstairs, and just shake my head. If it wasn't profitable then, how can we presume that it might be profitable in the future even with a new business model, whatever that might be, given the huge cost of start up?
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | How much did it cost the first time around? And as far as tooling, a lot of that is overseas right now. Could easily be replicated in the USA. And Skill? There are a lot of Ovation folks who got laid off and most likely haven't found work elsewhere. Like a lot of us here, they are old - not old enough to retire but too old to get hired somewhere else.
Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part but I would think it is doable. If I ever hit the big bucks in the Lotto (you know, those jackpots that get up into the hundreds of millions) I would do it myself. I truly believe in the brand and if DW does too, I think it's VERY possible to bring it back.
And I like the idea someone threw out here to call the first new model the Phoenix. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Jonmark Stone - 2015-04-04 12:41 PM
"There are always... possibilities"
Spock
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"He's dead Jim" ... Dr. "Bones" McCoy. |
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Location: Flahdaw | "I'm giving 'er all I've got".....Scotty |
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Location: Canada | arthurseery - 2015-04-04 1:57 PM All were made in Asia. All are great guitars. Don't blame Asia... Oh I have no issue with Asian guitars at all. Actually I firmly believe that in the 70s when I was most active the average Asian acoustic was better than the average North American (i.e. Martin, Gibson) acoustic. BUT, when I lurk at the AGF there is a lot of talk about Epiphone, Yamaha, Guild GAD, Eastman, Recording King, Blueridge etc as main Chinese makes suitable for beginners that I think are in the same price class as the current Ovations ... but these Ovations are nowhere on the horizon of entry level AGF members, which is a pretty big group. So I think that ought to tell us something about the competitive level of Asian built Ovations too!
Edited by d'ovation 2015-04-04 5:23 PM
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | "Live Long, and Prosper"
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Location: SoCal | Takamine is a good example of an off-shore taking it to the US and European market. Good to excellent guitar, pre-amp, and high artist visibility. And, without a direct sales force but through other distributors.
Anything would be too late for 2015 Winter and probably Summer NAMM but the test would be 2016 Winter NAMM. Will guitar stores (big box and mom & pop dealers) give orders...need to be in stores for "see, feel, play".
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Location: Denmark | CanterburyStrings - 2015-04-04 2:31 PM... Gibson GIVES them to people. They even give them to TV shows for product placement advertising. If the resurrected Ovation did that people would start seeking Ovations. ...
This is the way to reach younger generations. Submit a selection of Os and As for product placement in "The Big Bang Theory" and let Dr. Leonard Hofstadter perform a laser vibrometer analysis of the soundboard. That would be cool and would make a whole new generation of people - maybe also musicians - beg to buy. |
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | I too have nothing against Asian made guitars. They have their place, but the reason why I think that O should close Asian operations is 3-fold:
1. the tools used in Asia can be sent back to NH, minimizing operation start-up times for US production. Tools and jigs are extremely costly, and just looking at the Ovation tour video gives us a glimpse of how extensive the technology O used to build their guitars. I would suspect the tools and jigs in the Asian plants were probably spec'd very close to or exactly like the NH tools and jigs.
2. price point issues. It is encouraging to hear that Celebrities and Applauses are still priced low in the US. I can't speak for the rest of Asia, but over here in Japan, the prices on Celebrities have increased (It's been hard to find new Applauses in stores). It seems that the Japanese distributor is pricing the Celebrity Elites and Balladeers with MSRPs that are close to the US made Os of yesteryear. I suspect that means that somebody in the middle is profiteering or they just can't get distribution costs under control. In either case, we see Celebrities pitted against Martins and Taylors, and that is just bad business. You don't even want know how the floor sales people explain the discrepancies! O in Japan is simply pricing themselves right out of the market...
3. increasing labor costs in Asia. As capitalism spreads across the globe, countries are getting wealthier and the world economy is headed for a "global middle-class." That means plants will find it harder and harder to find affordable labor. When I was in manufacturing, the plants I worked at moved from Southern California to Mexico and onto Korea and China, and maintaining affordable price points was a nightmare. Asian labor is still far less expensive than American labor, but there is going to be some trade-off of efficiencies. At some point, the Asian labor force may acquire equivalent skills to mimic NH employee output, but by that time labor costs will definitely increase. When you consider, the cost merits of producing overseas to producing in the US, there is going to be a point of diminishing returns. For example, It may be more cost effective to upgrade Quality Assurance and Cost Control standards in US manufacturing than to keep looking for cheap labor...say in the Middle East or Africa.
Unlike machine intensive high-tech gadgets like PCs and cell phones (which many countries in Asia have been producing effectively), guitars are (even with O's high-tech standards) still extremely labor intensive. One of the problems I see on Celebrities are high-action. Inevitably, the necks (especially on the Elite style models) are not flush to the body top. Just a 10th of a millimeter here and there. We don't see manufacturing flaws like that in NH produced Os even though the tools are probably basically the same, and I'm sure the Asian plant folks will say, they all fall under accepted manufacturing tolerances.
Guild's comeback and Takamine's business models are also very interesting. But to some extent I think it also testifies to the strength of the appeal that standard woodbox guitars are enjoying now... Oh yeah, and didn't Kramer make a comeback some years ago too? You know, it's like ProfessorBB says, resurrecting O is far more complicated than I could ever know...all of your comments make a lot of sense too, and I can see how closing Asian production could be a detriment to the survival of O. No 'easy' solutions here..., and I've only been lurking around the OFC since 2010...still, I sure do hope that DW commits to bringing O back. Maybe Winter NAMM 2016...
Edited by arumako 2015-04-05 10:23 AM
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Location: Michigan | captain , i can try reversing the polarity on the anti matter pods but i cant guarantee she-ll hold up ! GWB  |
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Location: New Hartford CT | DW is a very innovative and modern company. Their level of quality is extremely high and they've come up with numerous improvements in drum hardware and drums technology. Their first real product was a cannister throne in the 70's and then they popularized the DW 5000 chain and sprocket bass drum pedal. From there they went into drum production, starting off very slowly but eventually becoming one of the greats.
In addition to their prowess in design, manufacturing production and distribution they also maintain a very close relationship with their artists. Most DW artists visit the factory frequently and this is a MUST for Ovation as it moves forward.
Ovation has have hooked up with a company that realizes the value of working with the pros who use their equipment and listens to them for ideas and inspiration. I may even start to think it's going to work...
Edited by Geostorm98 2015-04-05 10:50 AM
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Location: Texas | “This is an amazing opportunity to extend our passion and commitment for the art of drumming,” said Chris Lombardi, President and CEO of Drum Workshop, Inc. We’re excited to welcome these legendary American brands to the DW family.”“It promises to be a very exciting year”, continued Lombardi. My father (DW Founder, Don Lombardi) and I are whole-heartedly dedicated to these already well-established brands and see a bright future ahead for the entire drum industry.” They are a drum company. From the beginning it appeared that FMIC "threw in" Ovation in the percussion deal. Maybe had DW taken over production...but to try to bring it all back together AND be profitable after startup costs...seems to be a tall order. It is a dog eat dog world, with few scraps, in the guitar sector and a whole different day from when Ovation became a monster player in that sector. They would not re-enter the market as the new kid on the block with innovative design and "plug in" excitement... Another thing about that time...you could walk into a "music store" and sit down and play one of many O models that were in stock. When is the last time that happened??? How can you fall in love with something you cannot compare to the umpteen Martins and Taylors hanging on the wall? We can always hope...but lately, that hasn't really lived up to its' billing. |
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Location: Utah | arumako - 2015-04-05 9:16 AM
2. price point issues. It is encouraging to hear that Celebrities and Applauses are still priced low in the US. I can't speak for the rest of Asia, but over here in Japan, the prices on Celebrities have increased (It's been hard to find new Applauses in stores). It seems that the Japanese distributor is pricing the Celebrity Elites and Balladeers with MSRPs that are close to the US made Os of yesteryear.
Same thing here. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | arumako - 2015-04-05 9:16 AM
2. It is encouraging to hear that Celebrities and Applauses are still priced low in the US. I can't speak for the rest of Asia, but over here in Japan, the prices on Celebrities have increased (It's been hard to find new Applauses in stores). It seems that the Japanese distributor is pricing the Celebrity Elites and Balladeers with MSRPs that are close to the US made Os of yesteryear.
If you go looking for NEW... Celebrity guitar prices have gone up here also.
That is the corporate plan...
Blur the lines between Celebrity and Ovation to raise the price of the cheaper guitars thereby increasing the profit margin. They make a LOT more profit on a cheap guitar than an expensive one.
That is how they came-up with Celebrity Elites & Balladeers and even Applause Elites & Balladeers.
Thereby encouraging Parents to buy the wrong guitar, because they look the same.
(you'd think that a new generation would not fall for this trick, but you'd be wrong)
If you are expecting the business people to Love Ovations, or any guitar...
That ain't happening.
Guitars, or toasters, or cell phones, or Hot Pockets, or soda-pop...
It is all the same to the corporate mind... it is just a commodity.
The problem with Guitars and Toasters is that you will keep them longer than your cell phone.
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Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | I plan on keeping my cell phone for the remainder of my time in this corporeal state!! |
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| Great read, folks. I hadn't heard the rumors but I think I'm caught up after this thread.
I have a few questions.
1. Did they sell all the inventory (wood, wiring, machinery, etc) out of the factory or is it all sitting there or somewhere else? I mean, is the factory now an empty shell or aren't folks still there working on other things, maybe in other brands of the parent company? I don't know the answer to this.
2. In addition to all the start up costs mentioned here, someone would have to buy that brand, which even if out of production still has value to the folks holding the rights to the designs, patents, image, brand, etc. That's a huge cost. So, you'd be buying/leasing the factory, the equipment, whatever inventory remains AND you'd have to either work out a licensing agreement on the brands and designs (pay a percent on each guitar sold) or you'd have to buy it outright. Not sure about the financials--haven't seen the books--but I'd say the value for the brand, the tech, the design, the aesthetic of a guitar as well known as Ovations would probably cost you... what... 5 million as a bargain basement price? They aren't going to give it away. That's a lot of engineering and technology and patented processes. For all we know there's a manufacturer in Germany or wherever already courting them for licensing or design rights. What would that cost?
Building and maintaining a brand is about creating both a product and an image. Ovation failed only at the image portion (I'm not getting into the cheaper Os, but talking about the USA brand and Adamas). I got into Ovations when I was 14, so 22 years ago. And when I got into them, every young person I knew had F*nders and G*bsons (or Ep*phones, but they graduated to G*bsons). Having a guy like Slash play Les P*ul's probably single handedly moved a million or more of them off the racks and into homes. Those people became converts, for the most part. Str*ts had the same thing: lots of heroes playing them. My friends straight up teased me once they found out I was playing a guitar that Melissa E. played. Why? Because she was the pop hero Ovation had at the time.
Branding and image building is a vital part of marketing. Ovation didn't do very well, and it is really sad to me because they make these instruments that many of us love and consider works of art in themselves, instruments that I'd put up against any others on the market today.
If they came back they'd be hardpressed to get Slash or Clapton to start play Adamas, but that's okay. They need to get the newer indie stars playing them. Take some chances and just sponsor 30 of the most promising bands or artists on a sponsorship deal for the next 4 years. Free guitars. If 14-20 year olds haven't seen your guitar in the hands of someone they someday want to be, you've lost the sale.
I firmly believe that guitars are like cars. If your dad drove a Ford, you'll probably drive a Ford. Same thing with Chevys and Dodges. A few of us will have more than one guitar, but then don't almost all of us have predominantly Adamii or Os? They are our Dodge or whatever. Converting people to these guitars is not hard, but it can take a decade. My friend and someone I've played with for 15 years on and off finally admitted that he wanted an Adamas. His wall is filled with old M*rtins and T*ylors and he's got a rack of F*nders. 15 years it took him to say he wanted the same guitar I've been playing and he's been playing when we swap instruments. It wasn't the quality of the instrument. His mind was up against having seen so many people play so many guitars, but so few playing the one I've been playing. A good brand is like a religion; if not a religion... definitely a cult. Who is our high priest? We either need one or to not need one at all. But leadership matters, ask any failed cult. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | That New Guy - 2015-04-05 7:37 PM
I have a few questions.
1. Did they sell all the inventory (wood, wiring, machinery, etc) out of the factory or is it all sitting there or somewhere else? I mean, is the factory now an empty shell or aren't folks still there working on other things, maybe in other brands of the parent company? I don't know the answer to this.
I don't know everything, but I have a few answers...
The Wood was sold, I heard that Martin bought some of it.
I have no idea what they did with the Laser Vibrometer and all of the specialized equipment.
The Factory on Greenwoods Road in New Hartford is a big rental space.
You can see about renting it HERE
HERE is a short video of the old Factory, you can see it's size by looking over the people's shoulders.
Here is what it looks like with all of those people Gone!
I believe that the Mini Mother is still there (or near there), but it doesn't take-up all that space.
Isn't that depressing  
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Location: Canada | arthurseery - 2015-04-05 9:26 PM I don't know everything, but I have a few answers... The Wood was sold, I heard that Martin bought some of it. I have no idea what they did with the Laser Vibrometer and all of the specialized equipment. The Factory on Greenwoods Road in New Hartford is a big rental space. You can see about renting it Did they not mainly build Guilds there in the last couple of years of production? I would suspect that many of the assets and inventory would have been part of the deal with Cordoba and were shipped to Oxnard, or to wherever Fender acoustics are now built. Specific Ovation equipment that was of no use used to Cordoba or Fender may still be part of the mini-mother. However rebuilding a production line may not be all that bad. This could also be an opportunity to use newer and more effective machinery, and develop more efficient processes that could result in susbstantial cost reductions. |
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Location: Flahdaw | For arguments sake, if they were to start building O's again stateside, the LAST place they should do it is Connecticut.....probably the most expensive place to manufacture ANYTHING, between taxes, labor costs, etc. They'd best look in Texas, or Alabama |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Possibly the best thing about the sale to DW is it gives us something new to talk and/or bitch about.
Plus there's more hope and possibility than at any time since Fender bought Ovation. Is the hope misplaced? Time will tell.
My fingers are crossed! |
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IF the rumor ever becomes fact.....
