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Location: Central FL | The several I have seen all have noticable defects while some are slight some were extreme. I think many have been refinished. I would imagine careful examination will reveal the refurbish. I did see a messed up sunburst with one side with a thick coating and the other side lighter. But the guitar played fine. Also saw an Adamas with what looked like a imperfection in the carbon glass overlay. A so to speak shiny spot. Not repairable since the top was manufactured as such. But it sounded fine as well and was half price! Kudo's to Ovation if they have managed to repair a defect undetectable and still sell the guitar as a newly refurbished guitar! Says allot of their integrity. :) |
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Location: SoCal | Obviously, one of the advantages of an FRG is reduced cost (about $400, 29%) without compromising a great guitar.
However, this is a Collector's...all the seller has to do is peel off the FRG sticker.
Most likely the factory has the serial/code recorded for warranty issues but, if later sold, the buyer has no recourse to determine if the guitar has a lesser value as an FRG.
IMHO, the large number of FRG's (end of year clearance?)for the 2003 Collector's reduced the value.
The answer, again IMHO, is to "brand" the FRG either on the back of the headstock or into the inside of the bowl. Make it not obvious when playing but discernable to the buyer. |
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| Tony, was the issue on the glut of 2003 frgs released ever resolved? More than one dealer was claiming that the 2003 collector just didn't sell so the factory took new models and stamped them frg to liquidate (in order to avoid violating their own pricing policies). I remember the discussions on this board about that and people had varying opinions on the issue. In releasing the frgs now they actually dispell any chance of that being stated again. Was there ever a definitive word on that issue? On that model the FRg was stamped on the inside. It was not a sticker. |
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Location: NJ | if you sincerly think there is ANY company where a completed instrument that has a blem never makes it out of the factory you are sincerly mistaken.
FWIW Ovation marks them and represents them and stands behind them for 5 years. If that is not acceptable to you. BUY A NEW FULLY WARRANTED GUITAR.
I gave you all the info that I have as a dealer on FRG guitars. But there are a few that don't want to believe it. Hey I don't believe in Santa Claus any more but I still celebrate Christmas. I really don't see the need to perpetuate this any longer. I own several martins and have owned many over the years NOT all of them were jems believe me.
have a great day. i am going to enjoy it looking at the guitars I can't play. |
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Location: SoCal | It's possible that there was an overstock of '03's marked as FRG - especially with all of the discussions on the LX's that came out in 2004.
I want Ovation to have great quality control...end result is an FRG. And, a great deal for the buyer. As for me, buying a non-FRG sight unseen, I know that I am going to receive a guitar that is "perfect."
Just bothers me that when we buy a used one in a couple of years - not only do we not have a way to determine if it was stolen but may not be able to tell if it was an FRG. Oh well, I'll get over it. Used to have a statue of Don Quixote on my desk to remind me not to chase after windmills.
My recommendation is to buy a non-FRG or an FRG 2005 Collector's. It is that nice. Probably the best deal for the money that you can find. |
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| Originally posted by Tony Calman:
It's possible that there was an overstock of '03's marked as FRG - especially with all of the discussions on the LX's that came out in 2004.
I want Ovation to have great quality control...end result is an FRG. And, a great deal for the buyer. As for me, buying a non-FRG sight unseen, I know that I am going to receive a guitar that is "perfect."
Just bothers me that when we buy a used one in a couple of years - not only do we not have a way to determine if it was stolen but may not be able to tell if it was an FRG. Oh well, I'll get over it. Used to have a statue of Don Quixote on my desk to remind me not to chase after windmills.
My recommendation is to buy a non-FRG or an FRG 2005 Collector's. It is that nice. Probably the best deal for the money that you can find.
Tony- You and I are in perfect agreement. |
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Location: New Mexico | I am far from being any kind of expert but I must say that it is "unique" to find any manufacturer that readily identifies their product in this manner. I have never seen nor purchased an FRG but certainly admire Ovation for their quality control and also identifying such guitars. I have as yet to find anyone on this forum or any dealer I talked to that could truly identify anything significant, in fact most blemishes would never be noticed by the majority of us. I would think Ovation is doing whatever it can to mininmize the number of FRG's. They are in buisness to make money. Sure seems to me that this reenforces their integrity, something that is not always present in companies. Have not ever purchased a guitar from Al (hope to in the future) but one thing I have learned through this forum is he stands behind what he sells and posseses a wide range of knowledge. Integrity is hard to find, and all this free advice that this forum generates is priceless. I know this is a lot of .02 from a beginner but needed to improve my typing skills if nothing else. :p |
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Location: Central FL | Originally posted by alpep:
[QB]if you sincerly think there is ANY company where a completed instrument that has a blem never makes it out of the factory you are sincerly mistaken.
I realize that you are very pro Kaman but you seem to be trying to take the thread out of context. Which was about factory seconds. Martin doesn't sell them, Ovation does.....period!
Peace :cool: |
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Location: boulder | absolutely just my 2 cents worth also,
if you are buying a guitar to 'collect', I would suggest not buying a frg, as most/some collectors might see the FRG tag as an indication that the guitar is less then desirable.
if you are trying to find the best sounding guitar for your money, then I would think one would look at FRG's as an option. It seems like the only one who will know it is a FRG is the owner. (and no one else really cares anyways :) ).
What I think is interesting is that regardless of whether or not a collectors edition is an FRG, it retains it's serial # in the collectors run. (why it would not I can't tell you, same as for why it does.) I would think this raises value of all non-FRg collectors, since it would seem there are less non-frg collectors available. again, ...like what I think means anything, ;)
Lastly, the ovation info folks told me via email, that a Factory reconditioned guitar is a 'second' according to them.
now about those FRG OFC models...peace mike |
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Location: SoCal | Reference to Martin, may be so - don't know. I have seen Martins for sale (over the last 30 years) that shouldn't have left the factory.
And, yes I like do like some Martins...not necessarily their service. |
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| There's a store in England which sells more high-end Gibsons than almost anyone else and they advertise in the guitar press every month with detailed descriptions of their stock. They always include several where the guitars are described as having minor paint overspray, small blemish on neck, tiny crack on back of headstock etc., etc.. These are plainly Gibson FRGs that they couldn't be bothered to FR. Simply put them out to favoured dealers who knock something off the price and nobody ever hears about "lack of quality control". IMHO Gibson's is the worst in the business.
Interestingly there was an interview with Slash in Guitar Buyer over here a few months back where he made a big point of saying that he was using stock Slash Signature Les Pauls on his current tour. A couple of pages later he was describing how he'd gone to the factory to pick them up and had had to play 20 or 30 to find 2 to take on the road. Some quality control there - what about the poor schmucks who Gibson expect to buy the other 20 (and pay a big premium) and get a Slash guitar that Slash wouldn't play?
I'm with Al on this one - it really is a case of Ovation simply being honest. Go to one of your big stores and check out 3 or 4 Strats and see the differences. |
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| Okay, everybody's right, Kaman is doing the right thing being picky and selling the guitars as FRG. JUST MARK THEM IN A WAY SO THEY CAN'T BE RESOLD WITH REMOVED STICKERS! Gibson does this with a big 2 branded on the headstock. Al, I promise, good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise, my last post on this subject. |
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Location: Midland, MI | No, no, no. Slash was just picking the two that sounded best out of those 20 or 30 Gibson Les Paul Slash signature models. There was nothing wrong with the 18 or 28 that he didn't pick, they just didn't sound as good.
:rolleyes:
As far as going to the store and playing Strats. Heck, I can't even figure out why there are so many different versions of it...MIM, MIK, MII, MIC, MIJ, MIA, Highway 1, American, American Standard, American Classic, With Cheese, Hold the Mayo, ad nauseum, ad infinitum. That's an instance of truly just going with whichever one the store has that sounds best...because no two are the same model (unless you're at Guitarget) for comparison purposes. At least at the local mom and pops. Teles are the same way, IMHO.
Again, to reiterate...this is all my opinion. Nobody has to agree with it, in fact, after my second glass of vino this evening, I frankly won't care if anyone does or doesn't. :D |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Martin may not sell FRG but they are out there without the formal FRG stamp on them.I bought a new slothead 000-16SGT martin.Great sounding guitar but it had a flaw in the finish under the laquer.Three discolored stains that were lighter than the rest of the top.Its at Martin right now being refinished under warranty.After i sent mine to Martin i went to visit other music stores and saw two more Martin model 16's with the same problem for sale in the music stores.I brought it to the attention of the store managers as it is difficult to detect unless you angle the guitar just right in the light.Martin service admited that they have some finish issues with some models.So, even Martin screws up and sends out "DUDS" to stores.The way i see it all hand made guitars have flaws in them.Some worse than others... |
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Location: Central FL | Samova.... what shops had these bad 16's...curious? |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Dreamcatchers in Roswell and Earthshaking music in Atlanta.I saw them ,played them and brought the flaw to their attention.Same flaw as my 000-16SGT..Martin did confirm they had this problem when i spoke to them about mine. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | My guess is that Ovation does the honorable thing in labeling such product as FRG. Other companies just ship the shit out the door if it looks anywhere close to "OK" and bank on the fact that some of it will never be detected. Just a guess. I own "non-FRG" guitars from other companies that show more "defects" that my FRG Ovation. How does THAT happen? |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I kept track of the prices of new and used adamas for a year before I bought mine, and I noticed first, that FRG's are just that. Then occassionally, you'll see overstock or discontinued items, with the regular warrantee, and you'll notice the price drop but they are not FRG's. MY 2 cents. There didn't seem to be any rhythm as to when there were FRG's or overstock, discontinued items except maybe once in the spring and once in the fall. Check the guitartrader.com site and the worldmusic supply site, everyday for a year, if are obsessed with this kind of thing. |
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Location: New Mexico | Whether you agree or disagree the subject sure attracted alot of attention. Good thing for forums even if it does seem to border on "beating a dead horse" so to speak. I hope to just have 1/10 the talent of most of you that play.
Next topic? :eek: |
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Location: Central FL | Yea Bla bla bla bla! :D
By the way talked with both shops in cognito to get the real story. The stories were slightly different. Mention of Dreamcatchers it was actually a used 16 series that was traded in with what the owner said was due to the original owners abuse. Earthshaking Music manager said they had some moisture problems inside the cases. That was apparently caused by a high humidity situation when the guitars were stored in a particular area of the shop...Manager said they blew them out at slightly above their cost. None of which left the factory this way. Apparently Samava, you purchased one of these at a great price? I also spoke with Micheal Dickinson at Martin customer service. He was unaware of any 16 series finish problems as reported by dealers or consumers. Other than a problem deemed consumer abuse, which he stated out of *goodwill* Martin will repair. But stating most likely these were storage issues, which is why the dealer sold them discounted, there loss and liability. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | First of all i did not get it at a great price..$968.00 for a 000-16 series guitar is not a great discount.It lists for around $1549.00 so where is the great discount?Pretty much avg. selling price.So your story is wrong to begin with.Second of all why did only the 16 series guitars in that acoustic room develope problems and not any of the other 10 martins or larrivees or guilds etc..Third why does another guitar across town have the exact same finish flaw that looks just like mine and again its a 16 series.
You are welcome to believe what you want but i know for a fact that their is a problem with the finish on some 16 series and yes candidly the martin service guy did tell me they have some problems with finishes.It happens in the industry .You get a bad batch of toner,Laquer,etc.Why is this so hard to believe.I am a fan of martin and have 4 currently but i would not box myself in a corner and defend them endlessly to prove your point in the above posts. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Here's an interesting topic on the Martin forum about the 16 series finish problems.I wonder if Martin service knows about this?Im not trying to crap on Martins because i love their guitars but im just trying to prove a point.Their not perfect.
Topic is called "orange coloring around bridge of 000-16SGT"
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orange coloring around bridge 000-16SGT ?
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Hi folks,
I am looking at a NOS 000-16SGT at a store and there is some dark yellow/orange color just outside of the bridge.....it is not completely around it ,but in a few spots anyway....
the guitar is 3 or 4 years old and has what looks like a rosewood fingerboard......
I am wondering if anyone has seen this happen and know what it is ....and what might be a good price.... they are pricing it like it is a "new model" ......ten ninety nine.......
thanks
Jim
leftyD15
Registered User
Posts: 2848
(12/11/04 11:15 am)
Reply
Re: orange coloring around bridge 000-16SGT ?
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Sounds like it might have the "bleeding finish" problems that some 16 Series models have. Check the s/n and find out when it was made, then do a search here and see if it falls into that period when the problem was occuring. It might help if you could post a pic, too.
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2000 D-15; 2002 HD-28V; 2003 Custom 00-18VS(UMGF) #15; 2004 Epiphone Dot
My Guitars
Forum Intro p. 29
johnreid
Registered User
Posts: 3284
(12/11/04 1:46 pm)
Reply
Re: orange coloring around bridge 000-16SGT ?
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sure does sound like the "bleeding bridge" I bet the bridge is ebony. That is why they switched to Micarta, however if one keeps the ebony 16s from a lot of exposure to direct sunlight they seem to go forever without that problem. I bet it was displayed in direct sun at the store.
The Bluegrass Forum
jsalmon
Registered User
Posts: 237
(12/11/04 11:00 pm)
Reply Re: orange coloring around bridge 000-16SGT ?
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I don't know, my D-16GT got the "bleeding orange" spots around the bridge & fingerboard within about a year of being new, and without any significant exposure to sunlight. I called Martin at the time, and they acknowledged the problem and offered to repair it under warranty. The "repair" involved a complete refinish, and replacing the bridge and fingerboard with Micarta. I said thanks but no thanks.
I've never seen a 16-series of this era with the striped ebony bridge & board that did not have this issue.
000-28vs
D-16GT
JB Banjo
sugarinthegourd.com
Old-Time, All the Time
1dimeblues
Registered User
Posts: 59
(12/11/04 11:29 pm)
Reply Re: orange coloring around bridge 000-16SGT ?
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Jsalmon,
I wonder if this orange color is just cosmetic, or is it affecting how well the components are glued and sticking to each other.......
thanks for the input
Jim
it looks like the one I saw is the striped ebony, and it is in the acoustic room with nary a window.......
jsalmon
Registered User
Posts: 238
(12/12/04 12:27 am)
Reply Re: orange coloring around bridge 000-16SGT ?
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I'm sure it's just cosmetic...the oils in the wood leaching into the finish. Some have said they use a different finish |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Proof is in the pudding :D
Well played Sam! |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Stephen,i was ok with everything until he wrote,
"By the way talked with both shops in cognito to get the real story."
As if my story was not the real story!! Im sure a guitar store owner who sold a guitar 4 months ago and see's hundreds of customers a month would remember the guitar or a story better than someone who was very interested in and investigated the problem with these guitars..Also,there is no way Martin service cannot know of these finish problems.There are too many out there to deny. |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | It's ok Sam! We believed you anyway! |
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How Many FRGs are sold?
