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Location: Orange County, California | Wow!! That didn't take long.... I read the article, and all it sounded like to me was that you are not endorsing that the inexperienced venture where they have little knowlege. Perhaps in the future, one could suggest checking with a group of "all knowing experts" as to whether or not to buy something questionable, from ANY manufacturer. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Welcome to OFC, Nick. I'm still wondering about your comment that plastic doesn't age as well as wood. I thought my interpretation was pretty generous, especially compared to some of the others. I admit to no experience with other brands, at least not since 1977, but why doesn't the "plastic" age well. |
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Location: Maryland, USA | He has legitimate reasons, everyone has their own opinion.
No offense to him, I just find the only fault is that he didn't really go into the specifics of the examples.
I guess he was trying to make it short and sweet though, so maybe I'm just being a little picky ;) . |
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Location: Georgia USA | Now you've gone and done it, Cliff. I feel like the whole gang just got dragged into the principal's office. Nick, there may be some who disagree with you - people at the OFC are VERY PASSIONATE about their O's, especially their oldies, but I appreciate your making sure you were heard correctly.
One thing you might add to the column is that the best way to get a quality older Ovation is to buy it from an OFCer. If you take the time to read the ForSale posts here, I'd bet you'd be amazed at the incredible deals we make for each other on great guitars. Anybody who shafted somebody here would pay for it.
I'd like to say above all, welcome, matics, to the club. You will never find any better information about your guitar than here. Post pix - we'd all like to see it.
Jas |
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| That was my point, just poorly put. I was pointing out that the wood in a guitar responds to vibration and age, both the back and the top. It should have been a separate comment and wasn't really related. If you like the sound, you like the sound. What the back is made of is irrelevant.
I don't have any issues with the back per se. I've seen a few guitars in for repair where the bowl has detached. Now I've only repaired perhaps a half dozen with this problem, but I can't think of a single all wood that I've had in to fix that had the same problem of top and back coming apart. Granted it's a limited sample I'm dealing with, but percentage wise it is significant in my experience.
By the way, up until recently I owned a 2002 Ltd with the African Cherry top. It was one of the best guitars I've ever played.
So yes I've owned and played Ovations. No I am not Ovation-phobic.
My apologies to anyone I offended. It certainly wasn't my intent. |
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Location: SoCal | Nick:
Thanks for coming by. Hope you'll hang around and contribute. I need to know somebody for a while before I call him a f*$kin' idiot (my brother comes to mind for some reason -- so does Clifford).
I read the whole article and while I don't agree with your comment on Ovation (but it is your experience so while I would dispute it, I can't argue with your personal experience), the overall article was interesting. I would have preferred to have seen more qualification on the Ovation comment, but you were covering a lot of ground.
I've got a small amount of experience with older Ovations (I own models from 1968-1993) and have found them to be remarkably sturdy with little need for adjustment. I would guess that some of the problems you've seen with old O's and their tops were possibly a result of owners thinking they were indestructible and not caring for them as they would for the all wood guitars. Just a thought. |
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Location: Orange County, California | Originally posted by GN-Nick:
I don't have any issues with the back per se. I've seen a few guitars in for repair where the bowl has detached. Now I've only repaired perhaps a half dozen with this problem, but I can't think of a single all wood that I've had in to fix that had the same problem of top and back coming apart. Granted it's a limited sample I'm dealing with, but percentage wise it is significant in my experience.
That's because (Being generalistic with a limited sample here) unless it's a WWII era Martin, No one would bother to reassemble an all wood guitar that needed the top re-attached. Someone on this list likes to tell a a story about a guy that was still actively gigging with a guitar who's top held on by duct tape after being blown off stage by the wind...TWICE!! how long would a wood body last with the top off of it? Would you keep playing it? If not for the damage to the neck as well, this would not have been a total loss.
Nick, you should know that Ovation/Adamas are some of the most repairable guitars around. Sometimes it's a perfect opportunity for a newbie to get a great deal on a high-end guitar even if they have to send it back to "The Mothership" for a little TLC first. |
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Location: SoCal | I don't back off of the comments concerning the 12-strings...I no longer have any wood box 12's. My experience included Martin and Gibson.
I have eleven 12's (to include two electric: the Preacher Deluxe and Hamer Newport) from 1968-2004.
I have had no neck issues with an Ovation due to string tension. I don't have to detune to protect the guitar.
As to the bowl v. wood sides/back...other than serious misuse, of the over 40 bowl guitars, never seen a problem with the bowl. Yet, seen many "woodies" with serious cracks or other damage from anything like a mike stand or dropping the guitar.
I also doubt if there is a better Customer Service out there...as a non-professional, I have had outstanding communication and service on my guitars. Can't say that for Martin when I had serious problems with a D-18 12-string.
And, although not an expert, I seriously doubt if "aging" noticeably improves the sides and back of a wood guitar. IMHO, the aging affects the top. |
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Location: SoCal | so, anyone have a real old classic Ovation that they want to get rid of...let me know, I will appreciate it. |
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Location: Maryland, USA | And, although not an expert, I seriously doubt if "aging" noticeably improves the sides and back of a wood guitar. IMHO, the aging affects the top. I always thought that it affected everything, because over time the moisture leaves the wood so there is less heavy wood to absorb it...that's the theory on violins, anyway. |
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| I think we worded our comments for the benefit of our own members! Your comments about "Plastic" can be quite the catalyst for discussion on this site. The traditionalists have long overlooked the sound qualities of these fantastic guitars because they can simply NOT get past the fact that these guitars are NOT made completely of wood. So this is an issue for some of us.
So those of us who have endured the many comments about "Plastic Guitars" yet have witnessed their durability and overall fantastic sound quality! We do take offence to anyone who thinks otherwise. We have the luxury of first hand experience many times over and so our opinions may lean a little toward the "protective" side of things. I can't speak for Cliff... I am sure he does not need me too... yet Cliff's comment was spoken from true "experience"...period...and that's worth more to me than anything I read in a magazine anyway! Cliff's comment does have a real funny side to it if you are an Ovation fan.
Now with that said..... I have to say; it speaks volumes to me when I see the guy responsible for the article actually taking the time to explain his comments to us bunch of Ovation fans!
Welcome to the site! and although I may still not agree with you I see your point and, alright I'll admit it, you might not be a Fuckin Idiot. But at the time it sure did seem like the perfect response to what seem to be offhanded opinions, printed in a national publication, concerning guitars we know to be sound, and of perfect design, no matter what the "age". I stand by my comments.
You have got to admit... there has to be something special about these guitars to have a support group like this for guitars that are not considered to be "mainstream". It is easy to be a fan of "Martin" or "Gibson" or "Taylor" guitars they have been considered the best there is for many many years.
For what it's worth... it's interesting banter.
Randy |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | In the immortal words of Oscar Wilde, there is only one thing worse than being talked about, it's not being talked about. |
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Location: Tampa, FL | Six Ovations with top separation problems.
Any guesses how many he didn't see that were perfect?
Because they are not all wood, do you think perhaps people expose them to more extreme conditions and expect them to withstand it without problem. Go to other brand specific websites and you'll hear people talking about babying their instruments. Some I think would readily consider installing a guitar humidor in their house (right next to the wine unit I guess). The fact that so many O's have stood up so well I think mitigates Nick's comment.
Send me your tired, your weary, your huddled shiny bowls. |
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Location: NJ | ". . Probably should steer clear:
Any old Ovation, but there are exceptions . ."
A rather broad-stroke generalization.
An article that's entitled with the phrase "How To. . " is usually geared toward the uneducated/uninitiated seeking information.
To make such a statement without even a DEGREE of specificity to someone unknowledgeable does nothing more than
instill (albeit “unintentional”) a stigma in the reader’s mind against Ovation guitars.
A VERY loose analogy would be to tell a school-age child to avoid older black people . . . but there ARE “exceptions”.
Any “old” Ovation.
Another broad-stroke generalization.
What is the criteria that designates an “old” Ovation? 1968-1972? 1976-1993?
In another broad generalization, you define OLD as being “. . at least 10 years old . . “
Following your formula, any Ovation built before 1995 should be dismissed.
Being that Ovation is almost forty-years-old, three quarters of Ovation’s entire line should be panned.
That’s a HELL of a lot of good-sounding guitars that you’re suggesting people “. . steer clear . .” of.
NO mention WHATSOEVER is made regarding sound qualities of deep-bowl vs. shallow-bowl guitars,
OR the fact that the USA-made models attain a somewhat higher degree of quality in respect to materials
and workmanship than their Korean-made counterparts – which unfortunately for the most part are more
readily available – and are somewhat indiscernible to the uninformed eye . . .
Based on that information, a novice acoustic guitar buyer could theoretically “pass” on GREAT sounding
1975 deep-bowl Legend in favor of a 1998 shallow-bowl Celebrity simply by following your advice.
“. . In general, plastic doesn’t age as well as wood . . .” duh.
In general, plastic doesn’t AGE.
The properties of a wood-backed guitar change with age . . .“opens up” . . . . “mellows” . . . “overtones” . . . blah.
Again, you’re panning the guitar based on something that it wasn’t DESIGNED to do, and completely dismiss
(or rather ignore) the fact that a parabolic bowl is going to reflect sound much more effectively than a box,
or the fact that the Ovation will be producing notes of consistent volume/definition ALL THE WAY up the neck.
I’ve (we’ve) argued these points before with the all-knowing “WoodBack Cognoscente” with their toasted-wheat
underpinnings, and “rich, chocolate overtones” on their cowboy chords. If that’s what they like/want – more power to ‘em.
“It’s All IceCream”, and one shouldn’t dismiss an entire line simply because it’s not their favorite “flavor”.
Granted, I’m arguing “semantics” here to a HUGE degree. I realize that.
I’m just trying to illustrate the point that a newbie acoustic consumer is going to find your “HowTo” article,
read the line ". . Probably should steer clear: Any old Ovation, but there are exceptions . ." ,
NOT know what the “exceptions” might be, NOT know what defines “old”, and when he sees a potentially GOOD instrument
hanging in the Used section of a music store, his/her first sub-conscious inclination could very well be to “Steer Clear”.
Think about it.
On a personal note, Nick:
My initial comment was NOT intended as a personal attack on you. I don’t know you.
That being said, I apologize for using your name in my comment.
Yes, I am somewhat passionate and defensive when it comes to Ovation guitars.
I (unfortunately) have many years of experience having to do so, and sometimes I get a bit “touchy”.
I just want it known publicly that my comment was in NO WAY a personal slam against you.
It’s just that “generally” . . .
. . . I find people who write “How To” articles (and guitar articles) to be fucking idiots . . .
. . . but there are exceptions.
- cliff
Oh, and Mr. Moody;
While I haven’t met your brother (yet), I can’t speak for him, but as for myself:
“Lick my crack”. |
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Location: SoCal | Gross. |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | Cliff:
CHILL OUT! There are a whole lot of things that should get you more pissed off than that article
I don't like to get into politics on this site but the nomination of John Roberts to the US Supreme Court has my blood boiling. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Well put Cliff.
I have to beleive that proportionaly, there are many more "old" Ovations still in use than their all wood counterparts. This simply because their inovative design lends itself to an instrument that will out last many others. |
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Location: NJ | No need to "chill" (do people still SAY that??)
Not pissed in the least.
Asked for a comment/opinion, expressed it.
(click.) |
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Location: SoCal | What's the problem with John Roberts (besides the fact that he's not a liberal)? |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | Sorry I mentioned it.
(double-click) :) |
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Location: NJ | Let's please leave politics out.
I have COMPLETE confidence that Your President will nominate the best Judges that money can buy . . . |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Cliff,
Good post. Lots more informative than your earlier one. Now I like your earlier one better. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Originally posted by cliff:
Let's please leave politics out.
I have COMPLETE confidence that Your President will nominate the best Judges that money can buy . . . Uh oh...don't get 'em started. ;) |
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Location: Malden, Massachusetts | Well, by the time I got to Cliff's final summary, I must admit I was a bit weary. I have yet to read the article in question, but I applaud this gentlemen for signing on and defending himself.
However, if I were on trial for murder, I'd have Cliff for my lawyer in a heartbeat.
Plastics, on the other hand, have enhanced our lives greatly - but there remains that stigma from childhood:
"Hey...my thing just broke...."
"Whadya expect.....it was only plastic...." |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Going back to guitars....I DO have an old Ovation 12-string (1981 1118 Glen Campbell slothead) with a neck twist.....got it that way from a less-than-candid eBay seller. But with advice from other members on this board, I was able to adjust it to be nicely playable.
Roger |
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Stay clear of any old Ovation???
