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| The Ovation Fan Club | ||
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| Random quote: "It's much too late to do anything about rock & roll now ..." - Jerry Garcia / Grateful Dead |
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2007 | Message format | |
samova |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Dave, took your advice and got rid of that damn plastic bowl..Life is good!!       | ||
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| samova |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Atlanta,Ga. | |||
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| Old Man Arthur |
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Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777 Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Boy, this thread took a nasty turn... I like Ovations, cuz I like the round back. It's comfy. I can plug it in if I want to, but I don't have to. As far as being Top-of-Line exclusive guitars, that's why I have so Many Celebrity's. I like the idea that Ovations are Affordable. And "Working Man's" guitars. [One of the selling points of my 1312 on eBarf is that you can take it to the Park] I believe it is really cool to see famous musicians playing O's... But that ain't why I bought an Ovation. Some dude had an Ovation in 1971, and I liked it. And I think Kaki plays neat. I won't ever play like that, or that kind of music, but she's cool. | ||
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| MusicMishka |
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Joined: March 2005 Posts: 5563 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Wow, I try to take a day off and look at this: Ok, here goes: I have played guitar for most of my 55 years (42 to be exact); I have played and owned just about EVERY brand ever made...you name it; I have either owned it, played it or have it now...but I don't own or play junk...my professional career (which took me to 47 out of the fifty states, twelve foreign countries, cruse ships, and stages from Podunk Holiday Inn America to the Grand Old Opry in Nashville, recording with some of the finest musicians and songwriters) for the past 30+ years has always included Ovation Instruments...usually either Pacemakers or Elites. I also own some fabulous high end wood guitars as well as a nice number of Ovations and Adamas instruments...Is there a difference between Ovation and the others? Of course there is...Do the others sound better? That depends...Acoustically, it is hard to find an Ovation that holds its own with wood guitars (although I particularly like them; esp. the 12's)...BUT where the Ovations and Adamas guitars really shine is plugged in...I have yet to find a wood guitar that consistently sounds as good as Ovations do when plugged in (providing that someone knows how to set the PA or amp and doesn't play them too loud...finesse goes a long way in amplification of A/E guitars... Ovations have held up in situations of environmental extremes that my former Martins and my present Taylor’s could not and can not likewise endure...and most of the time they stay in tune... Many, many people are simply in the amateur category of player and that’s fine...many others are just collectors, and that’s fine too...I PLAY MINE...ALL OF THEM...WHATEVER BRAND AND HOWEVER COLLECTABLE...THEY GET PLAYED OR THEY GET SOLD...THAT SIMPLE. I have depended on my ear for my living playing music since I was 22 years old...I quit playing professional paying gigs in 1993...but I still play my guitars every day, and in the public eye every week. I feel confident making these statements and trusting what sounds good not only to me but to the audience as well. There is not a time that I play either my 1758 Elite 12's or my Adamas I or 47 RI that someone doesn't come up and marvel at the guitar with the round back...It opens the door to tell them about the company, the product, and the construction...you see I know about that stuff and I am passionate about that stuff! BTW, a guitar strap solves most of the issues and complaints...In fact, Ovation has even provided STRAP BUTTONS to attach them to. Anyone complaining about the wood guitars sounding better than a round back need only listen to the OFC copy of the Marcel Dadi and Jean-Felix Lalanne concert DVD of the 1988 Olympia Concert...Jean-Felix played a custom built rosewood classical (muchoo denarius) and Marcel played an Adamas...Close you eyes and try to pick out which is which...very difficult; and the sound is fabulous to say the least...I love my High End $3,800, $4,400, and $5,200 Top of the food chain Taylor's...my old equally expensive vintage Martins were great as well...BUT, I love my Ovation and Adamas guitars just as much if not more...they deliver, look great, play as good as I want them to, and did not cost me (with the exception of the 47 RI) anywhere near the price of my others. I've said it before, "Variety is the Spice of Life", and this "May not be your cup of Tea", but its been mine for 30+ years and I am not about to change now...Market share...long term collect ability?...endorsee's? Well, I've remained an endorsee since 1989: I am not famous and I did not ever get a freebie for doing that...I do it because it’s a GREAT GUITAR...and those of us on this forum KNOW IT! Why not the rest of the world? Well, we just need to do a little PR ourselves instead of sitting on our circumstances and waiting for the Mothership to do it all for us! It’s called pride of ownership! Issues? Of course, we've all seen them and I have experienced them personally...but by and large, at the end of the day, I still go to my Ovations for a gigging guitar...and take along whatever else I feel safe to take. “Oh ye of little faith”…Gee, haven’t I heard that somewhere before…… :rolleyes: | ||
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| Old Man Arthur |
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Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777 Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Thanx Mike... At Last, The Voice of Reason. (just some folks "Trolling" anyway :rolleyes: ) | ||
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| Tupperware |
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Joined: January 2005 Posts: 4903 Location: Phoenix AZ | Mike, as usual I love and respect every word you write. This is a FAN club and you demonstrate the true meaning of the word. A true ovation fan who speaks from years of experience. I doubt that any of the 300 or so active members here could find a single thing to disagree with you about. My only point is/was that the major objection raised by most buyers for not choosing Ovation is the plastic bowl. Weather I like or dislike the bowl myself is not the issue. I really believe that if they got rid of the bowl it would be a better selling guitar. Would it be a BETTER guitar? To the fans here at OFC probably not. Please don't anyone accuse me of being an ovation hater. I've owned 97 different ovations and all have been special in their own way. But I'm not so blind as to ignore the big picture as I see it. And the big picture is that Martin, Taylor, etc. sell a hell of a lot of guitars and get a hell of a lot more visibility than Ovation does. Go ask yourself WHY. I gave my opinion, and I'm sticking with it. Dave | ||
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| richardd |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 651 Location: Australia | I wouldn't be crying any crocodile tears for Ovation any time soon. They still seem to be selling fairly significant numbers of guitars and are one of the most recognised guitar brands in the world. There are many other acoustic manufacturers who would like the same standing in the marketplace. Ovation used to be "the" acoustic/electric guitar and were very popular. Today they're the roundback guitar and are very much a love/hate thing to most players.They look, feel and sound different. Ovation is the roundback guitar and that will never change. Most players won't buy one or even try one but you can never be all things to all people. | ||
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| Tony Calman |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | By the way, I would rather have the 47RI than a woodback guitar. I have no problem with the bowl and appreciate the fact that when I bump it I don't lose $300 of value. As to artist relations: What we all have to understand, including the old folks (those with member #'s less than 1,600) is that we have new members. Not sure if "lack of marketing" or "what strings to I use" has been discussed more. Kaman has an individual responsible for artist relations (David Vincent). How aggressive their effort is - let's not go there. Yet, an artist like Serge (Country Artist, San Antonio) isn't even listed even though Martin and Gibson feels him worthy of their time. CWK2's common response to this is "click". Marketing is more than an artist...for years, I never considered an Ovation even though I watched Glenn every week. My dealer (Marty's Guitars in Portland, Oregon) brought a 1158 Custom Legend slothead 12-str up to Portland from NAMM. He said "You will play this". Note, he didn't say you should. Seeing Glenn and guests play the Ovation weekly gave me confidence but it was the opportunity to pick up and play the guitar that got me to switch from Martin. The dealer was why I made the switch. Artist was a small part of it. As he is probably deceased or out of business, the fact that I paid 54% of retail helped. Lousy inventory and placement/promotion equals lousy sales. Lousy sales equalls poor dealer support. In the SoCal area, we have an aggressive Kaman Rep. Well, unknown how aggressive except the staff at the La Mesa/San Diego Guitar Center and San Diego Guitar Trader know his name, know who he is, and speak well of him. Both stores - good inventory, good placement of guitars and marketing material/displays, and knowledge. Guitar Trader has strongly supported Matt's Chop Shops. Guitar Center and Guitar Trader staff get to NAMM. Several times, our Rep (Joe Montoya) has brought their staff over to introduce me as a member of the OFC when I was at NAMM. At the Chop Shops, Joe has introduced those from the OFC and thanked us for our support. Notice that I said Kaman Rep. Even if Kaman had a strong artist relations, there a lot of products that are represented (to include Takamine). How much time and effort is applied to the Adamas and Ovation guitars? Does it go further...divest the US production of guitars from Kaman. Focus on providing top of the line guitars from Adamas and Ovation ...mid to low be a separate line. Celeb is a separate line but not enough differentiation from the Ovation. Heck, a Cleb even says Ovation on the headstock. Have reps that either get sales from a dealer or pull the old stock out. How many dealers only display the Celeb? We even have pawn shops and pharmacies listed as dealers. For those dealers that produce, work with them, help them. How many advertisements have you seen supporting the product and producing dealer. In the '80's, I subscribed to Acoustic Guitar. Started it up again last year...how many advertisements? NONE. So, unless Moody admits to knowing more than three chords or "pigs fly", nothing will change. As I look back since I joined the OFC, I have bought or traded a number of older and new Adamas and Ovation. So many, I need a larger house. I am a supporter that doesn't care what others feel are equal or better. Rather than a BMW, my second car is a Alfa Veloce Spyder...similar to having an Ovation/Adamas than a Martin or Taylor. | ||
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| FlicKreno aka Solid Top |
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Joined: April 2006 Posts: 2491 Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Dave,... I doubt that anone here considers you to be an "Ovation hater",I certainly do n`t..!!..but the bowl,apart from being a trademark,allows Ovation to focus more attention to other parts of the guitar,notice allso ,that remarks were posted about the (too)slim neck of the O`s,..others offer choice in neck/width/shape ,but so does Ovation ,this company is a young one (compared to other makes),yet innovation is a key point in it`s existence,the way I see it ,is,that these treasures are different from other makes,for a reason,where other makes have beautyfully made "backs" and "sides" we have the bowl,you have seen that beltbuckles,suspenders and the like can severely scratch/damage woodboxes,I do n`t care much about the bowl`s appearance,do you remember that in the old days the O` was billed as "the Strongest guitar",Charlie Kaman knew the short comings of guitars ,with his technical background he built a guitar to "do away" with those problems,only to encounter many other new ones,dispensed with some of those,and the result of his endeavours we wittness today,something with a distinctive "fingerprint" if you will,my previous post ,together with MusicMishka agree with you ,in that,a Good Dreadnought Acoustically might/could/would even surpass an O`,but an O` is indeed meant to be a Universal instrument plugged/unplugged with its own "character",improvements,custom jobs and the like all use that what sets the O` Apart ,from ,shall we say, "mainstream" guitars,now , I do understand that it has become a little tedious to handle that friggin Bowl,so I would propose that Ovation perhaps could make woodboxes as an Addition to their existing (main)line,throw in a "Jumbo "even ,and in the process revert back to their philosophy of "STRONGEST GUITAR",like bolting bridges again (by now we`ve seen ghastly pictures of bridges being pulled of),and perhaps rigorous testing of electronics,( we`ve allso heard too often of electronic breakdowns )would you consider that a viable option,what do you think.. :) Vic ..and perhaps review quality control,MusicMike seemed genuinely disappointed.. | ||
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| Tony Calman |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | Kaman WAS the innovator by breaking away from the all wood guitar and introduction of the pre-amp. Where do you go from a graphite top. Notice that other guitar companies have integrated what Kaman did many years ago, even Martin is offering low end artifical material, Lowden and others are using compound v. wood. We have seen that the hand laid bowl is still the #1 (high cost). For mass produced guitars, there is nothing wrong with the contour...nice upgrade. Op series (OP-Pro, Studio, and VIP) can be improved but the basics (LED tuner, EQ, etc.) are excellent improvements from what I have seen. As long as Kaman distributes Takamine, doubt if we will see a US made all wood guitar...cost a big factor, distribution contract a conflict. Interesting discussion with an individual repairing my ceiling - his uncle has a shop and builds guitars in TJ...Taylor uses him to assemble some of their guitars...and not the low end. Will Taylor and Carvin move ops south to save costs? Heck, Buck Knives moved from El Cajon to Idaho to save taxes and workcomp, as well as allow employees to live in a lower cost of living area. Tough when median cost of a home is about $500,000 for a thirty plus year old 1,500 sq ft. What I am saying is basically that an affordable, well playing guitar made in the US will soon be a rarity. The market, if there is appropriate marketing, will come back to Ovation/Adamas. Appropriate marketing - great product in the 47RI...we knew about it, first pictures from BroBobby's eBay listing but did anyone that buys other brands get a chance to play it? Is it a production model? When I took it over to Guitar Trader (for Matt's Chop Shop), the staff went nuts. When I took it to Moze Guitars (authorized Martin, Ovation, Hamer repair and the place to go to), they went nuts. Yet, first time they could hold it, to play it. Ovation...oh, that plywood Celeb...no way. | ||
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| Tony Calman |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | Quality control? Amazing...I have had in my hands five 2004 Custom Legend (anniversary) that were excellent. I have special orders for Adamas and Ovation (all 12's are special order). The 2005D, 1687 RI, and one of the first 47RI (003) were all excellent. Yet, those that had the early U681T had to send back...yes, a member of the OFC at the factory does wonderful work. Now, a 12-string Ute wasn't returned to the OFC buyer for many months. We have seen Dave's pictures. Yes, I have confidence in their quality control but I will cross my fingers when I order. Maybe a limited sample but I have not seen these problems with Martins, Larivees, or Taylors that I have owned or seen displayed in stores. | ||
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| Omaha |
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Joined: November 2005 Posts: 1126 Location: Omaha, NE | You know, every brand has its following, and every following has its idiosyncrasies. In the case of Ovation, there seems to be a certain insecurity...a perception of not being respected. To which all I can say is WHO CARES!!??!!?? I don't have any sense that Ovation is going to fold up any time soon*. The guitars that we like are going to be around for a long time to come. This thread presupposes that Ovation has a "marketing problem". I don't think that's fundamentally true. I think the guitar marketplace has a pretty rational view of what Ovation guitars are all about. Ovation's are not misunderstood. As to the idea of abandoning the roundback, that makes no sense to me. For better or worse, the roundback defines Ovation. Wood box guitars sell better these days. No problem...that's why Kaman added Takamine to the line. Wanna wood box? We got you covered! Ovation is a singular thing...can you think of another company that has established itself in the unbelievably conservative acoustic guitar market with such a non-traditional design? This is a market where Martin fans and Taylor fans argue about bolt-on vs dovetail neck joints. Where wood-sniffers wax eloquently about the differences between Brazilian and Indian rosewood. Where people argue and debate the tonal differences of Tusq vs ivory bridge pins. Considering that environment, the sheer audacity of the Ovation design becomes clear. CK and his team deserve a ton of credit for trying something new and making it work. There is precious little of that in the guitar world. *In fact if they got close to that decision I'd like to know because I'd step in and buy the company, but that's another story. | ||
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| vision |
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Joined: July 2007 Posts: 325 Location: Texas | Jeff, You hit the nail on the head - innovation in their design and it works. I purchased my first ovation over 30 years ago - what drew me to that guitar over all the woods - it's design and it set itself apart from all the rest. The sound was amazing as I compared it to all the other woods that I played that day. The ovation won....for looks and sound. That doesn't mean that I do not appreciate wood. I collect electric hand made guitars - all show the natural wood from zebra, purple heart, paudak, burl redwood etc. It makes them exceptional and also because their design is different from Fender, Gibsons and PRS. Just as good as the major brands but unique. That is why I love the Adamas and Ovations. Design, innovation and sound. CK was ahead of his time. To find a guitar that is thirty years old and still in excellent condition and playability will be his legacy. Wood guitars....will the shrinking availablity of exotic woods put an end to beautiful Brazilian and other exotic wood guitars......not sure but it will increase the price dramatically and will it be worth the cost? Here is an article from the owner of C. F. Martin. Christian Martin IV is a member of the sixth generation to run his family's renowned guitar-making business, C.F. Martin & Co. But he is surely the first to worry about the shrinking availability of the distinctive woods used to build Martin guitars, the choice of artists like Sting, Jimmy Buffett and John Mayer. As old-growth forests have been razed and tropical species like mahogany, ebony and rosewood have become endangered, guitar makers like Martin, Taylor, Fender and Gibson have had to rethink the notion of an inexhaustible supply of the desired woods to make their instruments. As small privately held companies, these instrument makers have banded together to join the burgeoning corporate social responsibility movement, partly to ensure their long-term survival. "If I use up all the good wood, I'm out of business," Martin said. "I have a two-year-old daughter, Claire Frances Martin, and she can be the seventh generation C.F. Martin. I want her to be able to get materials she'll need just as my ancestors and I have over the past 174 years." ____________________________________________ Obviously, the price of a C.F. Martin et. al. ,that are made of these exoitc wood, will dramatically increase in price or they will have to find an alternative material to use. C. K., without knowing it, designed a guitar that will not be subjected to shortages in exotic woods that are so sought after. In the process, he designed a guitar that rivials Taylor, Martin etc in sound. Marketing? I was in sales for 24 years and I understand the importance of knowing the exact type of plan to impliment to increase sales and grow loyal customers. I still think that is a problem with Ovation. Some where between the 90's to the present, they stopped seeking out performers that could show case these guitars to millions and bring a whole new customer base to this beautiful line of guitars. JMHO | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, . . . If y’don’t like the “plastic” bowl, don’t BUY the f@ckin’ thing!! It was DESIGNED to fulfill a specific need. It’s DONE that (very well, I might add) for 40 years. “. . They don’t get the “respect” . .” From WHO??? The jaggoffs that slide it out from under the bed t’noodle a couple cowboy chords for an hour, sniff some expensive, exotic wood, fretter over the humidity, and tuck it back way until the next opportunity?? F@ck 'em! There are PLENTY of brands out there who's necks need constant attention and pampering to occupy their time with. I, for one don't have time to dick around with all that. If all I did was at-home musical masturbation, maybe. I've got FOUR guitars that pretty much EVERY weekend go from my garage to my car, from my car to my office, from my office to my car, from my car to a gig, from the gig to my car, from my car to my garage. Lather/Rinse/Repeat. Pretty much Every Week. No problems. No issues. No constant between-song "fussing" that I see COUNTLESS colleagues with their oh-so-fragrant Brazzy-backed, cigar boxes with toasted-wheat braces have to contend with. I'm ALWAYS getting comments from venue management and other players that my guitars were some of the best they'd ever heard in that particular room. THAT's the market they're after. Not the Weeknight Wanker. For YEARS, Land Rovers were the dependable vehicle-of-choice in some of the most remote, inhospitable areas of the globe. Now, their target clients are latte-sucking, vapor-headed SoccerMoms with the cute little ponytail bobbing up and down out of the back of the baseball cap while they circle inCESSantly around the block because they can't parallel PARK the f@cking thing!! (My town is overRUN with them!) Did they sell more vehicles at a higher price point? Sure. Is it the same vehicle?? Last I checked, a driver's side airbag won't stop a rhino, and you can't fix a fried ignition module with a bootlace and duct-tape in the middle of Kalihari. Ovation screwed up (royally) by making all of their entry-level guitars look exactly like their top-of-the-line models. Their website has been a continual JOKE for a NUMBER of years. Having a necktie constantly around your neck for so many years causes you t'lose sight of things after a while. The in-store marketing of Ovation sucks as well. KMC needs to flex some of their distribution muscle. Their guitars have improved expoNENtially over recent years, and if they fix some of the above issues, I think they'll do great. Dumping the bowl for a box is like smacking yourself in the head and saying "Wow! Everything we've been doing successfully for the past 40 years has been "wrong", and we're just gonna get in line and follow suit with what everyone ELSE is doing". And I'm sorry but putting a box on the back of an Adamas is like pulling the fibreglass hull off an America's Cup racer and replacing it with one from the Amistad. If y'wanna "box", buy a "box". There's PLENTY of woodbox-related websites out there to CircleJerk on . . . (btw: Jimmy Buffett and John Mayer have the absolute SHITtiest live acoustic guitar sound I've ever heard . . .) | ||
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| Designzilla |
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Joined: December 2004 Posts: 2150 Location: Orlando, FL | Nicely put Cliff! | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | . . . and anOTHER thing: click! | ||
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| Slipkid |
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Joined: September 2003 Posts: 9301 Location: south east Michigan | IMHO, I don't big name endorsers can have the impact the used to. The music industry is so fragmented in to much dis-aray to get much result from any one name. | ||
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| stephent28 |
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 Joined: April 2004 Posts: 13303 Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by cliff: :D :D :D :D :Dblah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, . . . If y’don’t like the “plastic” bowl, don’t BUY the f@ckin’ thing!! | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15665 Location: SoCal | I don't think I would have phrased it the way Clifford did, but I agree with what he said. The other think to keep in mind is that Ovation sells everything they build. It's not like they've got inventory sitting around..... | ||
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| Slipkid |
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Joined: September 2003 Posts: 9301 Location: south east Michigan | SoccerMoms with the cute little ponytail bobbing up and down out of the back of the baseball cap Personally, I find that very attractive. | ||
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| fillhixx |
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Joined: November 2005 Posts: 4832 Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | I don't know numbers for s**t after all, I'm a salesman, but don't Ovation sell everything they make? Don't folks have to wait a pretty long time for custom orders? I wouldn't think market share is a problem, if you sell everything you make. Ovation was never the #1 popular guitar in the world. They were once, and to a large extent remain, a quality innovator. I, for one, hope they never become more popular than they are right now. I also wish certain rock stars wouldn't rave about the quality of old Ovation solid bodies and drive up the price until they go out of fashion.... | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7224 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Cliff, that is one of the most succinct posts on the topic I have seen in some time. Thanks | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SoccerMoms with the cute little ponytail bobbing up and down out of the back of the baseball cap -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personally, I find that very attractive. Brad; There's a couple of websites I can refer you to . . (hubba,hubba) . . . | ||
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| Tupperware |
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Joined: January 2005 Posts: 4903 Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by cliff: Good point. If y’don’t like the “plastic” bowl, don’t BUY the f@ckin’ thing!! No guitar will ever be all things to all people. We shouldn't persecute those who buy wooden guitars even if it is only to strum 3 chords and sniff the rosewood. Nor should others criticize ovations for what they are. Guitars are just all different tools for different jobs. Play what makes you happy because life is too short to do otherwise. I stand by my opinion that ovation would sell more guitars if they were a "me-too" design, but to their credit they have stayed the course and do a fine job of filling their niche. And as other have pointed out, selling more guitars is maybe impossible due to factory capacity. I understand all that. What's nice about this world is that we have a wide range of choices. Dave | ||
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| vision |
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Joined: July 2007 Posts: 325 Location: Texas | CK knows what a good idea he had and it would be sacrilegious to change such an amazing design. I am in agreement with everyone who says - if you don't like the bowl - don't buy it. Stick to the woodies and sell your ovations - we are here waiting for anyone to put them up for sale. I, for one, love the design that gives the added pleasure of an incredible sounding guitar. For some reason, I have no trouble with the roundback staying in place - sitting or standing. Musical masterbation - I might not be a professional player but it is very enjoyable feeling. :D :D | ||
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