| ||
The Ovation Fan Club | ||
| ||
Random quote: "One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain." - Bob Marley |
Harry Chapin's 1977 1613-4...
| View previous thread :: View next thread | |
Member Communities -> Bottom Feeding Luthiery Guild | Message format |
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Thanks, Mark. It does make an awfully nice workbench. | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | I wanted the new top to look as much like the original as possible. Ovation used Western Red Cedar for these guitars.
When I compared the grain pattern of the two, it was an almost perfect match. Certainly close enough under all but the closest scrutiny. The two are different in color. I wasn't sure if this was due to the finish is yellowed, discoloring the underlying wood. The only way to find out was to sand off the finish and get down to bare wood.
| ||
Jonmark Stone |
| ||
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1555 Location: Indiana | Amazing how closely matched the top and ear are. Little old fashioned karma coming down. Carry on | ||
Mark in Boise |
| ||
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12755 Location: Boise, Idaho | Dan, Why didn't you use Western Red Cedar for the top? | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Mark, Because the torrefied spruce will sound better, sooner. More importantly, it's also less susceptible to changes in humidity which are a bigger problem in NY, where this guitar will ultimately end up. | ||
Mark in Boise |
| ||
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12755 Location: Boise, Idaho | When I first joined this forum I noticed that cedar was often used on nylon string guitars and I asked why. All I remember of the response was that it sounds better. I guess I'm still looking for objective answers to subjective questions. | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Historically, spruce has been used on classical/flamenco guitars for centuries. Using cedar for guitar tops is fairly recent, becoming popular in the 1960s. Generally speaking, cedar will have a 'warmer' tone, but at the cost of projection (volume) and clarity. (separation of notes) Spruce will have more projection and clarity, but with a slightly brighter tone. (crispness) What I've found is that cedar has a lower overhead when it comes to projection. If your attack on the strings is too aggressive, the tone becomes muddy. More grist for the mill... The Advantages of Spruce Over Cedar Spruce vs. Cedar top classical guitar comparison - Viktor Fogas lattice concert guitars | ||
moody, p.i. |
| ||
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | Trigger has a spruce top. Sounds just fine to me.... | ||
arumako |
| ||
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2018-04-20 1:11 AM I remembered that I bought a corporate sales trophy made from an Ovation head stock. I pulled it out to see if I might be able to perform an ear transplant. Hi Dan, Your Spruce sound board is practically a twin! The aging of the cedar has made it identical to spruce - just incredible. Also, thanks for the links to the spruce/cedar discussions. They seem to support what I've experienced. Recently, repaired a cedar top cutaway nylon that is very warm sounding, but extremely loud. The table is only 2mm thick, but quite strong. The acoustic volume is probably the loudest of all the nylon strings I own. But iin the past, I've found cedar w/nylon strings to get a bit "scraggly" (for lack of a better term) when played hard. As if the clarity of the note gets compromised. Once again, you're "raising the bar" of the BFLG! Thanks again for sharing your journey with us. This is a real treat for those of us who were influenced by Harry's music and character. You know, with all the experience you have moulding FRP and the discontinuation of the Adamas line... Hmmm, how does a torrefied Birch fiberglass sandwiched sound board, resonance ringed, wood bowl backed project sound? Sorry, just a strange thought that crossed my mind, LOL! Edited by arumako 2018-04-20 10:37 PM | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | moody, p.i. - 2018-04-20 3:27 PM Trigger has a spruce top. Sounds just fine to me.... Speaking of Trigger. I'm not sure how many follow Dan Erlewine's How-To videos, but he has a couple with his cousin, Mark Erlewine of Erlewine Guitars in Austin, Texas performing annual maintenance on Trigger. Repairing Trigger Part I Repairing Trigger Part II | ||
Love O Fair |
| ||
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802 Location: When?? | How about fabric types of various thickness and weave, poured over with a thin viscosity clear that sets stiff and rigid? Then braced accordingly (whatever that may be). It would take some experimenting to zero in.. but definitely possible. Ever heard of that for a guitar top? I can't say as I recall ever seeing that.. but if I could have one made from the back of my late brother's favorite tropical shirt, the ultimate sound would be secondary to the sentiment of the piece. Whatever.. when my wife gets home I'm sure she'll have me moving furniture or such.. but for now the fabric guitar is my Saturday morning coffee ponder. Happy weekend to all. Edited by Love O Fair 2018-04-21 1:51 PM | ||
Love O Fair |
| ||
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802 Location: When?? | Well, not only furniture moving, but she also got her ashes hauled (the fireplace kind). Anyway, while hauling, I thought more and decided that rolling the clear onto flat and tight fabric in layers would be better than pouring. More control over thickness and texture desire, and perhaps extra or less coats on the back than the front to make adjustments for overall thickness. Okay, back to Saturday. | ||
Jonmark Stone |
| ||
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1555 Location: Indiana | I'm having withdrawals.... | ||
moody, p.i. |
| ||
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | Jonmark Stone - 2018-05-21 7:34 AM I'm having withdrawals.... Yup. It's painful.... | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Basically, the headstock I used wasn't thick enough to fix the broken ear. As a result I've had to hunt down some mahogany that is somewhat close to the color and grain of the original. Thankfully, I've been able to buy some that will be close. Now that I've got the wood I can get back to work on it. | ||
arumako |
| ||
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2018-05-21 2:44 AM Now that I've got the wood I can get back to work on it. Meanwhile, here's a video you've all probably seen already, but it features his 1613-4 quite prominently. Hope you don't mind my sharing this on your thread while we all wait with bated breath, Dan... Link: https://youtu.be/_1TUgWGuKM8 Edited by arumako 2018-05-22 9:08 AM | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | arumako - 2018-05-22 7:02 AM DanSavage - 2018-05-21 2:44 AM Now that I've got the wood I can get back to work on it. Meanwhile, here's a video you've all probably seen already, but it features his 1613-4 quite prominently. Hope you don't mind my sharing this on your thread while we all wait with bated breath, Dan... Don't mind at all. | ||
moody, p.i. |
| ||
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | Anything new? | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Yeah. Finally.
I tried several different methods of coloring the wood to match the head stock. From left to right these are as follows:
Here's the stained pieces showing end-grain and wetted out with naptha. As you can see, the end-grain is completely obscured and all we see are the pores of the wood. Ugh!
This piece was actually pretty close, but the wood grain was wrong and slightly too brown. Here's #4 with the block of wood it came from. As you can see, the torrefied is darker and the grain has been enhanced. But, it's the wrong species of mahogany and didn't match. Next are the experiments in dying. Unlike stain which has the pigment in suspension, dyes have the color in solution. This means that the color soaks equally into open pored wood like mahogany.
Next up, time to get started on the top. Finally! Edited by DanSavage 2018-06-26 10:58 AM | ||
Jonmark Stone |
| ||
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1555 Location: Indiana | Wow. Harry would be proud. | ||
moody, p.i. |
| ||
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | Love watching this stuff! Not as much as when it was my guitar, but love it none the less..... | ||
Love O Fair |
| ||
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802 Location: When?? | Why is the term "mad scientist" going through my mind? Like a room off in the corner, with family members huddled outside the locked door, "What could he be doing in there?"... hearing strange sounds inside, sliding meals under the door hoping he will eat... relieved when finding an occasional empty plate has been slid back out. | ||
DanSavage |
| ||
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Trust me, Al. Doing the 'mad scientist' thing isn't my idea of fun. In fact, it's going to be a real long time, if ever, before I do another broken ear repair. If the broken piece is available, that's one thing because it can be simply glued back into place. But, making it from scratch? Nuh-uh... Nope. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent. | ||
moody, p.i. |
| ||
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | When you stop and think about it, fixing the headstock is the really difficult part of this project. Retopping it is something Dan has done a number of times on various Ovations (twice for me).;.. | ||
d'ovation |
| ||
Joined: December 2003 Posts: 848 Location: Canada | Very interesting. So your approach is a minimum patch, possibly with objective to maintain as much of the original as possible. An alternative could also be to take some more of the treble side off to create a pleasing looking more symmetrical and unique outcome if the "blending" does not work well. Sometimes, if hiding a repair does not work well, emphasizing it may be a better approach. | ||
Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] |
Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
This message board and website is not sponsored or affiliated with Ovation® Guitars in any way. | |
(Delete all cookies set by this site) | |