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1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-08 10:16 AM (#529202 - in reply to #529195)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO
tpa - 2016-10-08 4:38 AM

Aluminum pieces are angled and glued to the outfacing sides of the bracing, I suppose. Apparently the ADII uses Alu reinforcements with varying success. http://www.ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=44...


Yeah, gluing metal, like these aluminum pieces to wood can be tricky. The purpose of the perforations is to give the glue something to grab onto. But, in order to work properly, you need to use enough glue so that it squeezes through all the holes. This is one application where more glue is better. The best bet is to have the glue ooze out through every hole. To maximize the holding power, I'm also going to sand the underside of these pieces to rough them up. Naturally, I'll be using Hysol.

Looking at the pics in the thread above tells me two things: too little glue in areas and the aluminum wasn't roughed up before being glued down.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-10-08 10:20 AM
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tpa
Posted 2016-10-08 5:22 PM (#529204 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 566

Location: Denmark
... or chamfer (some of) the holes on the free edge to provide an epoxy-rivet-head effect.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-08 6:25 PM (#529205 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO
Yes, that would work, too. Hysol is strong enough that you wouldn't even really need the holes. Just roughing up the underside of the aluminum would give it enough tooth that the brace stock would split long before the aluminum pulled away from the glue joint.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-10-08 6:27 PM
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-10 11:33 AM (#529225 - in reply to #529177)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 755

Location: Muenster/Germany

moody, p.i. - 2016-10-07 6:41 PM

Looks very cool. How does it sound? Does the saddle go all the way down to the guitar top?


No, the ebony is one piece that fits with very low clearance in the bridge, and the countersink (I don´t know to say that in english) for the bone saddle is about 5mm deep. It may be an illusion but I did it with 2 of my old Ovation guitars and they sound much better now, epecially more lower midrange and overall more intensity. I had even better results when I made the saddle of brass with some drilling holes for less weight.

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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-10 11:43 AM (#529226 - in reply to #529190)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
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Posts: 755

Location: Muenster/Germany
DanSavage - 2016-10-08 4:57 AM

The angles on the fan braces are approximate. I'll measure them for exact angles once the top is thickness sanded the top and cut out the outline a



The original fan braces are quite symmetrical. Wouldn´t it be better to break the symmetry? To open the 4 braces on the bass side a bit?
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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-10 12:07 PM (#529227 - in reply to #529199)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
May 2011
Posts: 755

Location: Muenster/Germany

DanSavage - 2016-10-08 5:08 PM

The A-brace looks to me, like a quintaid brace pattern that allows for a center sound hole. It seems to me that using taller braces that are still 1/8" thick, like the fan braces would help prevent the top from warping due to extra string tension, but still allow it to twist.

 



That´s right. I have a custom-made 12string guitar with fan-braces and only one (warped) cross-brace, no problems with the top but grrreeeaaat sound. Too many cross-braces like the ones in the customlegend 12strings might be soundkillers.I only have a pic of the braces in the raw, but you see that´s all you need for a 12string. The finished braces are even a lot finer.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-10 3:50 PM (#529233 - in reply to #529226)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
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Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

DetlefMichel - 2016-10-10 9:43 AM

The original fan braces are quite symmetrical. Wouldn´t it be better to break the symmetry? To open the 4 braces on the bass side a bit?


That's interesting. I didn't really look at the pattern of the fan braces in the pics you posted earlier, but the braces on your CLs are different than mine.

Here's your 1619. The braces look parallel to each other and look evenly spaced.

Here are the braces on mine. The one on the left came off my 1976 1619. This was the factory engineering guitar. The one on the right came off my 1978 1617. There are several refinements to the 1617 braces, themselves, but the pattern of the fan braces are nearly identical to each other.

As you can see, they are not parallel. Also, they are not evenly spaced from each other. At the top where they meet the cross-brace, they are spaced from left to right: .625", .75", .75", .6875, .875", .875". (15.9mm, 19mm, 19mm, 17.5mm, 22.2mm, 22.2mm)

At the bottom, they measure from left to right, 1.125", 1", 1.375", 1", 1", 1". (32mm, 25.4mm, 35mm, 25.4mm, 25.4mm, 25.4mm)

Like I say, the two sets of braces from these two guitars measure pretty close to the same distances, top and bottom. Since they were built two years apart, I don't think the spacing was accidental.

But, it's interesting that the braces on your guitars look parallel. I wonder if it's an optical illusion from how close the camera is to the cross brace.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-10 3:55 PM (#529234 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

Yep. It's an optical illusion. Here's a pic I took of my braces that matches the angle and location of your pics.

As you can see, they look parallel even though we know they aren't. So, that means that your CLs also have this same asymmetrical pattern on the fan braces.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-10 3:57 PM (#529235 - in reply to #529227)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

DetlefMichel - 2016-10-10 10:07 AM

That´s right. I have a custom-made 12string guitar with fan-braces and only one (warped) cross-brace, no problems with the top but grrreeeaaat sound. Too many cross-braces like the ones in the customlegend 12strings might be soundkillers.I only have a pic of the braces in the raw, but you see that´s all you need for a 12string. The finished braces are even a lot finer.

Nice guitar.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-10 4:25 PM (#529237 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
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Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

Back to building.

I was able to get the top wood thickness sanded. I also cut out the basic outline and drilled the holes for the bridge locating pins. I checked the neck angle and it's plenty good and won't need a neck reset. (Yay!)



I cut the sound hole and fitted the rosette.

Next job is to lay out the braces on the underside of the top and start gluing them down.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-10 8:36 PM (#529239 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
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Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

Normally I would wait to drill the hole for the pick-up wire until after the top is glued to the bowl, but because of the spacing of the fan braces I decided it would be best to do it now. This will be a cool-looking guitar. It's going to have an ebony CL bridge with a black pickup and a pearloid rosette.

Brace pattern is laid out on the underside of the top.

I used the 1619 top I had to confirm the brace pattern was correct. The mis-alignment seen in the pic below is due to parallax.

Braces glued, waiting to dry. I'll glue the aluminum reinforcements tomorrow after the OBG has dried.

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arumako
Posted 2016-10-10 10:29 PM (#529244 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1034

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Just...fantastic Dan! Sorry about all the questions, but what kind of material (black colored sheet) are you using under the sound board? My '94 1861-4 has X-bracing, my son's '00 1861-5 has A-bracing (both SSBs). The X-braced 1861 is louder and more dynamic. The A-braced 1861 is tighter with a consistent dynamic range across the fret board. Are you shooting for the consistent dynamic range with the A-brace or does the deep bowl configuration bring completely different acoustic characteristics into play?

...and I see you're 1619 was sold to a happy happy dnc4eva. Pretty soon people are going to be knocking down your doors to get their Dan Savage rebuilt vintage O! When I go to see my son at college, I might be one of those guys lined up outside! LOL! Just awesome work!

Edited by arumako 2016-10-10 10:31 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-11 9:24 AM (#529249 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO
Hi Ken,
The black material is a section of a trash bag. I ran out of visqueen, so the black trash bag was the largest single piece of plastic I had on hand.

Yes, the X-brace will be louder than the A-brace. A friend of mine is a professional recording musician and he says that the engineers always want him to bring his A-braced Ovation to the recording sessions. He says it's because they don't have to adjust the levels to soften the strong bass response of other guitars, such as those using the X-brace pattern.

Yes, I'm doing an A-brace, partly because I'm curious what it will sound like using torrefied wood, and also because the A-brace is one of the most popular patterns among O fans.

Personally, I'm a fan of the X-brace, in general, and specifically, the simple X-braces used on the original 1960s Balladeers. It sounds really good, and are really easy to make. The X-braces used on the 1974 1111 I'm rebuilding are similar, but are tapered on the upper part of the X and have the three tone bars between the lower part. It still sounds every bit as good as Ovation's original X-braces.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-11 3:06 PM (#529255 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
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Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

Aluminum reinforcements glued into place.

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DetlefMichel
Posted 2016-10-12 5:14 AM (#529264 - in reply to #529244)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
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Posts: 755

Location: Muenster/Germany
arumako - 2016-10-11 5:29 AM

Pretty soon people are going to be knocking down your doors to get their Dan Savage rebuilt vintage O!


Arumako you are so right!

What a wonderful piece of spruce! And the looks of the dark CL bridge and the light rosette will be the "Hammer" as we say in german. 6-string Mercedes 560 SEC. This is going to be a "one of 1000" guitar.

... And thank you for your patience with all our comments and questions.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-12 9:01 AM (#529268 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks, guys.

Yes, I agree with you. The grain and silking on this top will be very similar to Jay's 1967 Balladeer. I like the how the ebony bridge looks with the pearloid rosette. I did the same thing on my 1617, but the black saddle and wood carving adds just a little bit extra flair. This will also be getting gold EVO frets and gold strap buttons to match the gold tuners. It will look every bit as good as it sounds.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-12 8:25 PM (#529274 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



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Location: Pueblo West, CO

Top being glued to bowl.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-13 12:47 PM (#529288 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

The glue joint between the top and bowl was cured enough that I was able to pull the weights off.

I used some of epoxy I mixed up for the fretboard extension of the 1111 to glue the binding that popped off the end of this fretboard extension.

I'll let the top/bowl glue joint cure until this afternoon, then I'll grind down the excess top material in preparation for routing the binding and purfling channels.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-17 6:11 PM (#529352 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

Top is glued and out of the clamping fixture.

I routed the binding and purfling channels.



And, glued the binding and purfling into place. I'll let the glue dry until tomorrow, then pull tape and start scraping.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-18 6:56 PM (#529373 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
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Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

Binding tape pulled up.

Binding and purfling scraped down. The top is ready for finishing. But, while I work on the headstock repair and finishing the neck on the 1111-4, I'll refret this guitar's neck with EVO gold frets.

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-20 4:55 PM (#529425 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: RE: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



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Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO

Old frets are out, slots cleaned. New frets cut, tangs trimmed, ready for installation.



New frets are installed. I'll let the glue dry until tomorrow, then trim and bevel the ends. After that, they'll be ready for leveling and crowning.

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-10-20 5:04 PM (#529426 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
Can't wait to play these puppies.....

Assuming I'm allowed.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-10-20 5:16 PM (#529427 - in reply to #529426)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



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Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO
Me, too. Not just allowed, but encouraged.

Yeah, I already have a good idea of what the 1111-4 is going to sound like because of how Jay's guitar sounds.

I'm curious what this one will sound like. No one's ever heard a torrefied-top A-brace O before.
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2016-10-20 6:28 PM (#529432 - in reply to #528984)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1555

Location: Indiana
As you probably know, Paul and I are huge fans of A-braced O's. Bet he's salivating. I would be.
Again, beautiful work Dan.
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jay
Posted 2016-10-20 7:25 PM (#529433 - in reply to #529427)
Subject: Re: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1249

Location: Texas

Dan, I dont think it will exceed 485 in acoustic response...I just cannot see how that is possible. I am not sure if you remember, but we talked briefly about going the A route, but you convinced me otherwise....and I am glad you did. How much difference will the bowls play, do you think?  

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