|
|
Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 566
Location: Denmark | Difficult to guess about anything without knowing how the sale actually is on the present line op products. Even if they have the chinese build guitars they only do any good for business if people actually buy them. I would personally not buy anything with the new headstock no matter where it is produced. If they wanted to do something new they should be able to do better than that headstock. My wishes for the brand would be to make a reasonably priced quality series with good and consistent QA and based on rational and modern manufacturing methods. Like two wood tops (one with sound hole one epaulettes) available in SuperShallow, Medium and (maybe) a contour. And they could keep one Adamas of peoples taste if they can sell them.
Somehow I also think that they will really need to reintroduce the brand as a quality product and find some popular present musicians to help promote the brand.
Edited by tpa 2015-04-02 5:30 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Well, we can blame companies from allowing big box stores almost unlimited credit while pressuring the stores as to how much inventory they purchased
GC is an excellent example of Fender allowing credit even though it has been well known that GC wouldn't be able to pay. Feeding the pig until it can no longer walk. In a guitar example Fender providing credit until GC implodes and Fender has to continue to try to sell off assets and attempt to raise funds through optimistic projections. Even the buzzards stayed away from Fender's IPO several years ago. This manipulation of the market by GC and Fender has seriously hurt (if not destroyed) the mom & pop stores.
I would like to see that the former workers, design, technology, etc., to allow a boutique company to compete at a profitable level. Lots of competition by major companies (Collings, Martin, Taylor, etc.) as well as boutique companies in guitar sales of $3,000 and a lot higher. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4044
Location: Utah | The USA built instruments have to be clearly differentiated from the offshore instruments. Fender used the opposite tactic of confusing the customer (and intentionally hoodwinking the customer in my opinion) until the typical prospective customer didn't know what he was looking at in the store.
Edited by FlySig 2015-04-02 6:52 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | amosmoses - 2015-04-03 6:03 AM Wouldn't labeling everything as Adamas, detract or diminish from the originals? Transitioning the name to everything certain sounds like a pure bred to mixed breed move. What, something like calling a Celebrity an Ovation? (Look where THAT got them) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Let's see, couple of things to distinguish a US...gold label, brown bowl and case, old logo inlaid across the headstock or down the headstock, old round rosette, and carved bridge. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | damon67 - 2015-04-03 7:04 AM The marketing guys need to stick with the plugged in aspect, and take it to the next level. touting them as the best stage acoustic, HANDS DOWN (and that's not spew) Well they'd have their work cut out for them. Acoustic guitar amplification has come on in leaps and bounds since Ovation created the benchmark. One of the reasons I sold my 2005 Collectors (which I swore I would never sell as it was, at the time, my dream guitar) was to buy a Maton that I fell in love with when I heard it played acoustically - and when I heard it plugged in... I had to have it. FWIW, the pickup system is called an AP5 Pro. 9 times out of 10, when I get off stage after an open mic night performance, I get people coming up and asking me about my Maton. A couple of times the open mic compere has asked if he could play some songs with it. The only times people came to discuss my Ovation was to ask what it was, because they're not so widespread down here. Not because of the sound, but because of its appearance. So Damo, with the utmost respect - "the best stage acoustic, HANDS DOWN". Well, nowadays I'm afraid it IS spew.
Edited by muzza 2015-04-02 10:11 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | naellis58 - 2015-04-03 8:50 AM So do we drop it, and just accept that O & A will never come back??? Yep. No point in getting your hopes up. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | tpa - 2015-04-03 9:28 AM Somehow I also think that they will really need to reintroduce the brand as a quality product and find some popular present musicians to help promote the brand. I've been a member here for nearly 10 years and we've been saying that for as far back as I can remember. It ain't gonna happen. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | I just don't see anyone bringing Ovation USA back. These companies do business models and projections, and if they thought it was viable, it would have been done already.
The world has changed and moved on.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 566
Location: Denmark | FlySig - 2015-04-02 6:51 PM
The USA built instruments have to be clearly differentiated from the offshore instruments. Fender used the opposite tactic of confusing the customer (and intentionally hoodwinking the customer in my opinion) until the typical prospective customer didn't know what he was looking at in the store.
FMPOW - and described well by the words on mr. Calman ... the pig can walk no longer. So in reintroducing the Ovation brand I would drop the asian manufactured lines completely and stick to domestic manufacturing of a limited conservative line. Clearly they will need to be very rational in manufacturing methods etc. to compete this we have to learn anyway - also in Europe. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 566
Location: Denmark | BTW Reviving a strong brand has been done before. Look at kitchen machines, the Mini, the FIAT 500 some Ray-Ban models. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6994
Location: Jet City | Muzz, I've never seen a Maton here and hadn't ever heard of an acoustic one until you talked about them, so I can't really speak to them at all.
I'm sure there are lot's of other boutique brands out there that blow away an O too, though most I'd not want to carry up on a stage full of my loadie musician buddies.
Anyone that knows me aside from the Ovation stuff knows that I have owned a shitload of other brands too, and so far Ovation has indeed been the best stage guitar for me. I don't think they have the best preamp, I run it through a sound processor. I don't think they sound the best acoustically, though there are a few exceptions, especially if you include the Adamas line. I think both are good, but not the best hands down. I like the Cooltube preamp system on the Taks, the dual system my Larrivee has, and many others over the Ovation setup. I think that's one area they can improve to get themselves back into the cutting edge for sure, but overall, the playability and durability are what have done it for me. O's are built like a tank. Not to mention the SSBs that are so comfortable to play. There are certain pieces that I seem to struggle with on other guitars that come so natural and easy on my O's. I have no valid reasons I can point to for this. There are various neck profiles on them over the years, so it can't be that. It's a comfort thing, maybe the round back has everything to do with it. Maybe it's all in my head with my first love being a solidbody electric with a rounded back and a duck bill headstock.
one man's spew is another man's... never mind.... that's a bad analogy.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | It is just not in me to give up, so I am going to hold onto the Hope.
DW seems to have a great reputation, and I looked at their drums, they know their woods, and seem open to being innovative while sticking to old fashioned high standards. And they accept Custom Orders, and have do-it-yourself Kits. So they are Flexible too, and want to cover a broad base of buyers.
Not ready to hang up my hopes yet! Come On DW!!!  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2011
Posts: 47
Location: Minneapolis, MN | I'd love it, but need those old necks too... Never surrender. 
Regards, BillÆ |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Yeah...those necks were something special |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | BillÆ - 2015-04-03 3:31 PM
I'd love it, but need those old necks too... Never surrender.
Regards, BillÆ
HI BILL!!!
Nice to see another Minnesotan here!!!  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2010
Posts: 823
Location: sitting at my computer | darkbarguitar - These companies do business models and projections, and if they thought it was viable, it would have been done already. I'm not convinced Ovation wasn't viable or able to be profitable. I'm thinking it simply wasn't profitable enough to satisfy Fender's corporate mismanagers. Seems to me there are lots of small, but viable, guitar brands out there, so I'll continue to hope we at least end up with a boutique Ovation (and service center) rather than none at all. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | An archtop and/or a resonator using the current bowl might be interesting (doesn't have to be metal)...not sure about a banjo but Deering had a model that is played like a 12-string guitar. or  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4044
Location: Utah | SOBeach - 2015-04-03 4:26 PM
darkbarguitar - These companies do business models and projections, and if they thought it was viable, it would have been done already. I'm not convinced Ovation wasn't viable or able to be profitable. I'm thinking it simply wasn't profitable enough to satisfy Fender's corporate mismanagers. Seems to me there are lots of small, but viable, guitar brands out there, so I'll continue to hope we at least end up with a boutique Ovation (and service center) rather than none at all.
Fender went all Ivy League Wall St. accountant on it. They wanted maximum market share and ROI, which meant they needed to cut costs at the expense of quality, and they had to ramp up quantity of units sold. Musical instruments fall into several categories, but one of them is not $300 professional grade guitars.
The market is not going to support high volumes of $2k+ guitars. The business model has to acknowledge this, and make room for the pride of employees, the value to the community of domestic manufacturing, and customer pride as worthwhile reasons to exist in addition to profit. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | That ain't gonna happen.
ROI (return on investment) has ruined almost ALL American (and international) companies.
People, meaning the people who make the decisions, want immediate 150% Profit.
Investors front some money, and they want to see an immediate return.
Investors are not necessarily trying to make a superior guitar.
They are not trying to "create jobs" or "produce a fine product."
These folks ain't trying to maintain or restore an iconic American Company.
The current crop of Accountants and Investors cannot fathom that concept of Hard Work and long-term earnings growing over decades for both the employees and the owners.
Rather than understand the concept of creating a great product that people can be proud of, and slowly accumulating wealth in the process...
The current crop of business school morons only care about the next quarterly report, and how much money can be made for Shareholders so those business school morons can get a bonus.
This applies to everything, not only guitars.
(this should be my new avatar) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | It is SO costly to start a manufacturing business in this country these days that you HAVE to think in terms of ROI. The reality is, no one is gonna buy the brand and start making Ovations again if they can't make GOOD money doing it, And truth be told, the demand from the public for an Ovation guitar is simply NOT there. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan | Thanks for the interesting thread. Great read...lots of love mixed with sheer reality and some pain/bitterness... I am one who is hoping for US production to start again. Ovation is an American icon. The company and guitars still represent all that is and was so good about America and American music. Nearly all of my guitar heroes, played Ovations. I just saw a post by Damon67; and for the first time, I realized Neal Schon played Os too! Now, I keep thinking I'll never be able to afford a new quality Ovation made in the USA; but then, that's a cop out isn't it. So, I'm going to keep saving each month, just in case. Who knows, in a couple of years I might be able to buy a brand new New Hartford O or Adamas...but every year?..., I'm afraid not. But then do the guitar "collectors" keep the guitar industry alive? I don't think so.
The industry has changed so much, but is it naive to think that 'it is still that young guitarist who dreams of playing great on a great guitar that saves his/her dough and goes out to buy that incredible guitar that he/she dreamed about' that makes the guitar industry live? I don't dislike Fxxxxr because they bought or sold Ovation. I dislike Fxxxxr because they took a beautiful guitar that used to be the epitome of the music world, the guitar that my heroes played with soul and passion (my 'dream' guitar) and brought it down to the level of a flutophone (no offense to any flutophone fans out there). Sure, the market for Os is soft; but the Os that we love and play were so innovative they practically made a market for themselves. I guess that is why the demise is all the more difficult to swallow.
I think somebody mentioned Harley Davidson's comeback in this or some other related thread, but if O is going to make a come back, I think it's going to need to be like HD's. That means DW will need to make some risky investments to bring Ovation back. For example,
1). Close all overseas production and build exclusively in the USA. No offense to Asian manufacturing (btw, that's where I'm writing from), but play a Celebrity then play a NH built O. Nuff said. You just can't afford to have mediocre stuff out there anymore.
2). Investing in innovation. Ovation was always synonymous with innovation. New materials, manufacturing processes and amplification technologies have advanced. Ovation was always on the cutting edge, and they'll need to stay there to survive (I don't think O can survive today using Gibson or Martin as a business model). These may be stupid ideas (sorry, if they make you laugh or angry. I know some of you guys/gals are way closer to this than most of us, and have probably thought about stuff like this for years...), but how about...
a). An alternative to Lyrachord, like an affordable wooden bowl back. The traditional wood box guitar has been back in vogue. I've seen discussions on the OFC about wooden bowl backs. It makes sense. The native Americans and northern Eskimos used to make their canoes digging out logs; there's got to be some way to either make a pure wood bowl or combination wood-synthetic bowl back? I'd bet they'd kinda sound cool too?
b). Variable thickness soundboard - I remember when my friend let me play his 1687 Adamas long time ago. He showed me a document that showed the resonance characteristics of the guitar. That was mind boggling to me. Scientific evidence that the 1687 produced awesome sound. Of course, one strum, and I didn't need a document to convince me of that reality. It was simply the best sounding guitar I had ever heard. With high tech machining capabilities today, making soundboards with thickness variations can enhance or tone down certain tonal characteristics of an acoustic guitar and give it a unique voice.
c). New bracing patterns, materials and tooling to accommodate and provide durability for "b)." above.
3). Get the O back into the hands of great guitar players. Marketing will be so crucial. Ovation's reputation as the "best" will need to be re-established in the minds of the general public.
4). Quality Assurance - remember when you went to the music store and every O you touched was made well, played great, and sounded excellent? Anything less will simply not do...
And probably most important is that the owners will need to love Ovation guitars and the people who make them more than they love money. Re-opening Ovation is going to be costly to say the least. ROI is bound to be non-existent for the 1st 3 to 5 years, and even when ROI goes into the black, it's probably not going to be enough to make anybody filthy rich. It'll probably be enough only to make a decent living building the finest and most unique guitars in the world. If that's not going to bring satisfaction; well, OMA's little cartoon may be my new avatar as well...
Edited by arumako 2015-04-04 9:30 AM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2011
Posts: 887
Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | The good news is that it is still possible to acquire a quality Ovation or Adamas from the 70's or 80's if you have a little patience and search a bit. To me those guitars are superior to any new product which might come from Ovation or anywhere else!! Am I a recalcitrant luddite?? Maybe so but a happy one! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 848
Location: Canada | It is also interesting to watch the development of Guild which is currently being re-developed as a brand. Though it is also painfully obvious that the survival of Guild has to some extent been paid for with the demise of Ovation.
Some of the things where Guild has an advantage compared to Ovation:
- quality manufacturing in NH was shifted from Ovation/Adamas to Guild which helped to re-establish Guild as high quality guitar
- Ren Ferguson was brought in to revive the Guild line
- Asian Guilds (GAD series) have great reputation as entry level/budget guitars
- Cordoba bought Guild brand with big commitment from the outset
- Cordoba acquired top machinery, tone woods, inventory, and Ren Ferguson in transaction with FMIC
- Cordoba makes major investment buy building a brand new factory in Oxnard
- Cordoba builds relations with dealers and musicians (some emerging ones too)
- Cordoba connects with collectors to acquire vintage models for measuring and testing
- Cordoba develops plan to start manufacturing simple traditional models and gradually re-introduce high end models as skill of new workforce is improving and production levels are anticipated to increase
So I think they have much going in favour for them, and DW hopefully has an eye on them to see how it could be done right, though Ovation unfortunately is at a much more disadvantaged point with years of neglect and abuse, dismantled assets, bad reputation current Asian models, and few remaining and aging artists who still play them.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4044
Location: Utah | arumako - 2015-04-04 8:12 AM
And probably most important is that the owners will need to love Ovation guitars and the people who make them more than they love money. Re-opening Ovation is going to be costly to say the least. ROI is bound to be non-existent for the 1st 3 to 5 years, and even when ROI goes into the black, it's probably not going to be enough to make anybody filthy rich. It'll probably be enough only to make a decent living building the finest and most unique guitars in the world. If that's not going to bring satisfaction; well, OMA's little cartoon may be my new avatar as well...
And there is value in other than profit. Yes profit needs to be there, but it isn't everything. Except that so much is owned by uninvolved investors who only care about profit. Hey, that's how I look at my retirement savings, I want the best return I can get. Profit is good. But we've hollowed out our economy chasing only profit. |
|
| |
IF the rumor ever becomes fact.....
