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January 2005
Posts: 161
Location: Atlanta GA | Originally posted by ProfessorBB:
Originally posted by Watchme22:
In the old feedback system you had this Marshmellow Hammer you could hit the seller with and now you don't ... Isn't it only buyer feedback that is being discontinued? |
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March 2006
Posts: 1634
Location: Chehalis, Washington | The up side of Paypal (at the risk of being the only one who thinks so) is that it allows people who are not a "business" to be able to safely send and receive money that they would not otherwise be able to. I absolutely WILL NOT send some random person a money order or wire money for an item. A couple years ago I got scammed out of $2700 on a wire transfer deal, and I won't ever go there again.
Likewise, I've had two occasions that I bought items from private (non-business) sellers on ebay that turned out to be either bogus or damaged, and if not for Paypal's buyer protection system I would have lost money on both of those. Fortunately, it worked out, and I have not ever really had a problem with them.
The trick is, it's just another payment processor, who happened to be the first one to figure out how to provide that service to private parties. I can't fault them for that, nor can I fault ebay (their parent company) from wanting to encourage users to use that system, as it puts money right back in their pocket. Strikes me as good business sense overall, and last I heard something like 25% of ALL ONLINE SALES were handled through ebay in some way...astounding.
What DOES concern me as a frequent ebay user (200 transactions in 4 years) is taking away the balance of sellers being able to leave feedback. As I know many people here do also, I am very hesitant to deal with a buyer with no feedback, as the couple times I have I ended up getting burned in some way, even if it is just relisting fees from a deadbeat bidder. Likewise, the way the "reputation" system is set up ONLY works if there is reputation for "good" and "bad" buyers as well as sellers. I don't buy anything on ebay without checking feedback scores, and likewise require those with low or negative feedback to contact me before I let them bid. It's just simple good marketplace ethics if you ask me.
I think they're really shooting themselves in the foot here, since raising fees, requiring paypal of those who choose not to use it, and eliminating sellers' ability to judge the legitimacy of customers can only hurt the system in the long run. I for one will be much more hesitant to sell things through ebay if they make the process both more expensive and more risky for sellers.
...breathe...sorry, rant over. This just seems stupid to me. Kind of like if Ovation decided to stop distinguishing on the labels between Celebrity's and US-made guitars, and just put them both out for us to guess which is which. It would be ridiculous, and only hurt the brand in the long run. That's my concern here. Just my 2 cents. |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7237
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by alpep:
so I don't take pay pal. I take credit cards LIKE ALL LEGITITMATE BUSINESSSES.
Give me one additional advantiage you have using pay pal that you don't have using a credit card.
you have to dispute the charge any way you look at it. And what many people don't realize is that the item HAS to be returned to the seller. Many buyer scammers out there think that they can keep the item and cancel the charge WRONG. the first question the credit card company asks is "did you return the item"
pay pal is just another way to take money. As a legitimate business who pays for merchant services, I find this disgusting. The fact that e bay requires you to take pay pal is stupid.
Some of the "old timers" who would sell in the buy and sell papers or the vintage mags would accept postal money order only. Why? they can cash it at the post office and there is no paper trail.
So you take pay pal now you have to declare income, pay state sales tax etc. Do you think e bay is going to balk at providing information to the feds or state govt on your account? hell no and how friggin convenient is it for them to be able to show how much $$ you took in along with what kind of business you have.
I hate this subject. What he said... especially the last line +1 +1 +1 +1
For me it works out. I only take Payment via paypal unless someone asks ahead of time to send a money order. But that's because it works for us. I do all my shipping via PayPal also, so all the records are in one place. It also figurs out the tax for me. However, I don't have a brick and morter store and I don't generally take phone orders.. but if I do, they pay via PayPal.
Again... it works for me at this time, but I could see if I was set up with a store or sold in places besides eBay... I'd be at wits end. I'm somewhat at wits end just reading about it.
But, to paraphrase what someone said.. I do have a choice. I could always starve... not much of a choice. :( |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | it wouldn't link.
sorry for wasting time/space |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | another statement that makes my blood boil.
I don't use pay pal they cost too much.
so did you pay to set up a merchant account? do you pay a statement fee every month from 4 credit card companies? did you buy or rent a credit card terminal?
Oh no you didn't? how about that REAL BUSINESSES DO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | One of the qwirkyest chacteristics about e-bay is how "real" business's stand shoulder to shoulder with the guy who is just trying to clear out some room in his closet. |
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Posts: 1634
Location: Chehalis, Washington | And the guy clearing room could soon end up with a multi-million dollar business just doing that. I hear those stories all the time.
Al, I'm not sure who you work through, but for our business we use both Paypal for online purchases through our website (because it's easy and I'm not a professional web designer and did it myself), but we have a merchant account and terminal for the road shows we do. For that, we purchased a terminal and pay merchant fees....and you know what? Our paypal account is actually MORE expensive to use. We don't pay monthly statement fees and did not pay to set up the account. Competition out there is way fierce for merchant services, and it's not too hard to find a good deal anymore.
If you do local business and use a bank, that's cool. If it's online and Paypal works for you, that's cool too. Different strokes for different folks I guess. |
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Posts: 815
Location: Colorado | Unfortunately, we live in a society that demands instant gratification. This society wants hands-on control of its destiny (because it simply cannot trust others to do their job). This society wants things now--not next week, not tomorrow, NOW. PayPal and other online payment companies work and succeed because they are convenient for buyer and seller. Ebay and PayPal are a match made in "I have to have it now" heaven. And they know it.
Businesses and sellers are, in alot of cases, willing to pay the 3% PayPal fee out of their selling price. Once again, convenience.
It would probably go something like this:
The buyer who doesn't want to get up from their computer, walk to the garage, get into their car, push the button to open the garage door, turn the ignition key, put the car into gear, drive a mile or so to the nearest store that sells money orders, get out of their car, walk into the store, wait in line at the counter, actually communicate face-to-face with a human being, pull out their wallet and say, "Oh, crap--no cash. Where's the nearest ATM?", pay a $0.50 charge for the money order after paying a $2.00 fee at the ATM, get back in their car, drive home, pull out an envelope, address it, stamp it, put money order inside with printed off auction page, walk to mail box and put envelope inside, raise the red mail flag, walk back into the house, shut the door, walk back to the computer, sit back down and hope that, by the grace of God, the US Postal Service doesn't let them down.
In the time it took someone to read this, they could have paid for an auction item through PayPal and not been in a situation where they had to "make" time to go buy a money order and, God forbid, mail it and wait another week for the item they purchased. Am I guilty of this? Absolutely. Too many people believe their time is "worth" something. To some degree I used to be one of them.
In the last year or so I have been more careful than usual on Ebay. I am usually a buyer, not a seller. Generally speaking, based on my observations, buyers and sellers do not communicate well enough--that would take effort from both parties. Buyers are far too impatient and feel cheated. Untimely, hasty feedback is one of the results. Sellers feel justified in their "eye-for-an-eye" retaliation.
It takes effort to throw someone under a bus, but not much from a computer keyboard. It takes a little more effort to communicate on a courteous level in an attempt to avoid a reputation-damaging situation.
More proof to me that the internet is good for some things, not everything. |
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January 2008
Posts: 58
Location: west | I'm with you on this one Wabbit..
We have an ebay business and the items you highlighted area a concern for us too...
feb 20 coming at us like a freight train...
guess we'll see how it all works out... |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Unless Bill Cobb gets over-ridden (or ridden-over) these changes will happen, like it or not. We'll just deal with whatever happens. I know from reading the ebay forums that a lot of sellers are expecting the worst.
And Todd, we love buyers like you're describing. They make it possible for someone like my wife to operate a thriving and growing internet sales business despite not driving and having virtually no computer experience. |
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Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | back in the dark ages (the nineties) you had to pay to get a merchant account set up fees etc. I think it was $350 or something like that. I also had to purchase a terminal etc. I get statement fees every month and everytime I take an card it seems like my fees are higher but true not as high as pay pal
as for the feedback. I had some wanker from the UK bid on an item. he then sends me an e mail to cancel his bid, I tell him to withdraw his bid. he does not want to do that since it is an e bay strike against him. so he tells me he will not pay. I am out the listing fee and I have to wait 8 days to go through the e bay appeal procese to get my final value fees back. if i send him a negative he will give me one, although he deserves it not me.
so as a seller you are always screwed. |
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Posts: 4413
| The UK wanker concerned wasn't me, just in case you were wondering.
My bank actually has Lost Art's details listed and stored so I can just make a call and they send al money. SWMBO doesn't know this. I'd be grateful if it stayed that way. |
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January 2008
Posts: 58
Location: west | well check this out - it appears as if a large contingent of sellers are going to strike against ebay the week of 18-25 Feb - in protest of the rule changes - and i'm all for a general selling strike - I urge all of you to not sell one darn thing during the week of 18-25 Feb.. :-)
general ebay seller strike 18-25 Feb
NO SELLING! NO BUYING!! NO EBAYING!!!
FEB 18th - 25th and eBay...YOU'RE FIRED! |
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Location: closely held secret | Yeah, and nobody was gonna buy gas on May 15 to protest high prices. That worked well. |
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Posts: 15678
Location: SoCal | I followed the May 15th gas strike and didn't buy on the 15th. Instead, I filled up on the 14th..... |
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Posts: 1483
Location: Michigan | I just listed something on the E-Bay and it took me a half a hour and a BIG VO & Water with their live chat people to find out that I could still list an item without having to accept PayPal as a payment source.
After doing E-Bay for a few years to me it just keeps getting harder & longer for me to sell anything.They seem to be trying to get so creative with the way you that you list things that they are scaring away people like me who just want to clean out the basement and have some fun doing it.GWB |
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Location: closely held secret | I'm ashamed of you, Paul. I certainly didn't fill up on the 14th.
I had plenty to get me through till the 16th... |
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January 2008
Posts: 58
Location: west | "Yeah, and nobody was gonna buy gas on May 15 to protest high prices. That worked well."
well - as has been said in the past - "you can lead the blind masses to water...."
fuel and ebay humm.. you're right! I see the vast similarities... :-)
but alas...it's true. it's hard enough to even sit down with yer kids for dinner and talk, much less getting the neighborhood together to discuss anything important... it's no wonder nothing works..
the consumer has a considerable amount of economic power; especially en-masse... and it's lost due to __________. (insert reason here) |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Ok, so the fuel/ebay comparison is a little shaky. The fuel thing won't work because people need fuel. Skipping one day is no sacrifice, and the oil companies never see a blip. In fact, it hurts the retailers who have no control over the price much more.
The point is, it's hard to get enough people to boycott when it's their livelihood at stake. |
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Posts: 5331
Location: Cicero, NY | Note to admins: I would like it duly noted that I'm willingly holding my tongue here... |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | and you look very silly doing that. |
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Posts: 5331
Location: Cicero, NY | ;) |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Hard to understand, too. C'mon, Weas, let the wisdom flow. |
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December 2001
Posts: 7237
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I read the "new policy" and there are some things that it doesn't address, which may in fact be the silver lining.
Now this I'm sure doesn't apply to everyone, but just in our circumstance...
On not being able to leave negative feedback..
- I have gotten a few stupid negatives. They really were totally unfounded, and we received NO communication from the buyer at all. They paid, got their item, agreed it was as described, didn't like it, left negative. Now we did of course "respond" to the negative which is shown and really the important part. The fact that I pissed and left them a negative is pretty irrelevant. I only care about people reading feedback for me as a seller and right under the persons moronic comment, it my comment, and of course a link to the auction where any who cares to take the time can see it was just buyers remorse or whatever.
So, for that part of it, not such a big deal. We haven't had the cases that many have of a non-pay bidder leaving bad feedback too. That of course will end which is a good thing.
But as I said, I don't see where the "respond to negative" is going away, that's the real important one for my money.
- Now on the strike thing... Lisa came up with this, and frankly I'm surprised none of the 1000's discussing the strike came up with this idea and it's much more damaging and long lasting. Sellers should just stop leaving feedback. Period. Postive, or otherwise. When you buy something in a regular store you don't get a grade on how well you paid or how nicely you waited in line. However, if a customer does send you a nice note, you may post it on your bulletin board. We give feedback to those who leave us feedback, unless of course I'm the buyer, then I leave feedback.
But back to my point.. Rather than hurting ourselves with a week of lost business, that will have essentially no affect on eBay... just stop using the Feedback system. Those that need to respond to negatives can (response to neg), but other than that... don't. How will this affect anything you ask??? Simple.. All the new people that are signing up to eBay daily that need to get some sort of feedback to even be able to buy with most dealers. I believe most of my auctions state that you have to have a feedback of at least 2 to bid. If none of the new buyers from here forward get feedback... THAT will put a dent in eBay because it will drive BUYERS away. And THAT is who eBay caters to.
As it is... after the 20th, for the average joe buyer, it's business as usual. The people really affected by all this is "sellers". As long as there are buyers, there will be sellers. Drive the buyers away... eBay will listen.
As far as the "other" sites... sorry.. for many of us, it just isn't worth it. For myself it isn't worth it. The customers aren't there. eBay is just too big. I sell a lot of odd little odds and ends. Deciding to list something on a site with 2 or 3 million members, mostly focused on niche category, and regional (several sites are like this) or for the same money list to 13+ million people worldwide... simple answer.
Again.. NOT the solution for everyone.
FYI... The bit about "having" to use PayPal is only for certain "High Risk" items and applies to "New Users" mostly.
I know people love to feed off drama, gloom and doom, and paranoia, but after reading that eBay forum, the CNNMoney, ZDNet and other articles, I went and re-read the new policy. It has little affect on anyone doing a legit business on eBay, except the fee's which actually in some cases give discounts for high-volume, good service.
I will say this. It is making it harder for new people to start out on eBay. That is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because most of us will agree that our worst "customers" and incidents are created by NEW eBayers over items for which they paid less than $5.00, and of course non-pay bidders. This new system should weed some of them out. The down side is there are people out there that rarely use eBay... but I or you might have that special something they want, and now it's going to be a bit harder for them to have the opportunity to have it.
So, as they say... we shall see. Coke survived "New Coke"... eBay will press on as well. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Good points, Miles. I had forgotten about 'respond to negs'. It is more important to be able to defend rather than retaliate.
Lisa's idea is a good one. Post it on the ebay forum! |
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Ebay stops Seller's Feedback of Buyers
